Dungeonmaster's Index (by Dave Arneson)

[tgamemaster1975]

I am not sure if this is the place for this or not, but I am interested in whatever info the owner of the Dungeonmaster's Index (by Dave Arneson) could share with us of exactly what resources are included in the index, its scope as it were, and any other details about the organization and content of it.

[coffee]

tgamemaster1975 said:

I am not sure if this is the place for this or not, but I am interested in whatever info the owner of the Dungeonmaster's Index (by Dave Arneson) could share with us of exactly what resources are included in the index, its scope as it were, and any other details about the organization and content of it.

I could swear I already answered this. So I went to the "Who Has the Dave Arneson Resources" thread and copied my earlier answer:

Okay, here's the deal on the Dungeonmaster's Index.

It's a 38 page book, 8" x 10". Color front cover, b&w interior.


MOD EDIT: Image added for ya!

Anyway, the book is divided into the following parts:

Part I Men and Monsters pp1-13
Part II Spells pp14-23
Part III Magic Items pp24-36
Part IV Tables pp37-38

Here are a some sample entries:


From part I Men and Monsters:

Air Elementals, CM-31, EW-57 (See also Elementals)

Alchemists, Vol. III-22

From part II, Spells:

Aerial Servant (C-7th Level); GH-21, 31, 32, EW-57, SS-15

Animal Growth, (D-5th Level); EW-13, 24

From Part III Magic Items:

Amulet vs. Crystal Ball & E.S.P.; Vol. II-25, 36, GH-43

Amulet of Inescapable Location; GH-43, 49

From Part IV Tables:

Alignment Charts; CM-39, Vol. 1-9, GH-6, EW-2


As you can see, it's just an index. But it covers everything from Chainmail through the Strategic Review #7.

Hope that clears things up a bit. I'll be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

[tgamemaster1975]

I missed the post in the polling thread, which is terrible since I started the thread. So it just goes through SR#7 and doesn't cover any of The Dragon.

Is there an abbrev key that you could post or anything like that?

[coffee]

Sure:

CM is Chainmail
Vol I is Men and Magic
Vol II is Monsters and Treasure
Vol III is The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures
GH is Greyhawk
BM is Blackmoor
EW is Eldritch Wizardry
GDGH is Gods, Demigods and Heroes
SS is Swords and Spells
SR no 1-7 is The Strategic Review, No 1-7

These are the only ones listed, but others are used, specifically for spells. Not too hard to work out:

D for Druid
C for Cleric
I for Illusionist
M for Magic-User
P for Psionic

[Finarvyn]

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of this book, let me know. I suppose I could sit down and do an index myself, but it's always nicer when someone else does the busy work first...

[crimhthanthegreat]

I think there are very very few of these around, and the odds of any of us getting one short of someone making a pdf and passing it around a slim to none. However; we could go into the workshop since we do have one and start a group project of all 108 (as of this moment) members to create our own index and include the relevant issues of The Dragon also. Then we will not only have an index but it will be even more complete. Since we have created it ourselves, we can pdf it and pass it around, post it at DF etc.

What do you think, Fin, can we do that here as a group. If we all had the same index to use, might be a really good thing.


And while we are at it why, don't we start a project to create a supplement along the lines of Supplement I Greyhawk.

[coffee]

Ah, ya caught me! I've been toying with the notion of scanning the book in and making a pdf of it. Couldn't (and wouldn't!) sell it, but it might be nice to have it available. Maybe RPG Now would be able to do something with it, like get Dave's blessing and make it officially available. I think there might be a few people out there who would like to have a resource like this.

But I don't know how to go about the whole getting permission/setting up the distribution chain thing.

Any advice?

[crimhthanthegreat]

coffee said:

Ah, ya caught me! I've been toying with the notion of scanning the book in and making a pdf of it. Couldn't (and wouldn't!) sell it, but it might be nice to have it available. Maybe RPG Now would be able to do something with it, like get Dave's blessing and make it officially available. I think there might be a few people out there who would like to have a resource like this.

But I don't know how to go about the whole getting permission/setting up the distribution chain thing.

Any advice?

The only advice I have is if someone here has contact with Dave Arneson and assuming he has the rights to it (he may not have the rights as part of the resolution of the lawsuit being settled with TSR). If TSR ended up with the rights it is a shame they didn't print more of them. But someone could check to see if he does have the rights and if so if he would be interested in having a pdf created to see at RPG Now. Hopefully he would be interested. I know I would gladly buy the pdf.

But if that route is fruitless, I still propose that we start a thread in our workshop and create our own and include The Dragon in it.

[coffee]

As far as TSR having the rights, I wouldn't think so. It's not a TSR product. I don't recall exactly who published it (i.e.; what company Dave had that published it) but it is definitely NOT from TSR.

So that gives us some hope, doesn't it?

[crimhthanthegreat]

coffee said:

As far as TSR having the rights, I wouldn't think so. It's not a TSR product. I don't recall exactly who published it (i.e.; what company Dave had that published it) but it is definitely NOT from TSR.

So that gives us some hope, doesn't it?

One can hope. I was thinking that since it is an index of TSR products they might have claimed it as part of settling the lawsuit, but I don't know one way or the other. Someone that knows DA personally needs to ask him.

[Wm. Earle Wheeler]

admin said:

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of this book, let me know. I suppose I could sit down and do an index myself, but it's always nicer when someone else does the busy work first...

Same here. Honestly, I'd probably end up re-keying the entire document and changing it to suit my own purposes, but I would love to see it.

[badger2305]

crimhthanthegreat said:

coffee said:

As far as TSR having the rights, I wouldn't think so. It's not a TSR product. I don't recall exactly who published it (i.e.; what company Dave had that published it) but it is definitely NOT from TSR.

So that gives us some hope, doesn't it?

One can hope. I was thinking that since it is an index of TSR products they might have claimed it as part of settling the lawsuit, but I don't know one way or the other. Someone that knows DA personally needs to ask him.

I know Dave. I can ask him. I suspect he's still got the rights, but I could be wrong about that.

[coffee]

It really looks self-published, so with any luck he does still have the rights. Thanks, Badger2305!

[coffee]

I checked last night (finally remembered).

All it says is Copyright 1977, David L. Arneson.

So there's no reason he shouldn't still hold the rights.

[Finarvyn]

It makes me wonder -- if you make an index of someone else's product, at what point does it become yours and at what point is it kind of the property of the person who wrote the original product?

I'm not saying that Dave doesn't or shouldn't have the rights to this book (especially since he is credited as co-author for most of the material he is indexing) but the "big picture" question got me wondering.....

[crimhthanthegreat]

admin said:

It makes me wonder -- if you make an index of someone else's product, at what point does it become yours and at what point is it kind of the property of the person who wrote the original product?

I'm not saying that Dave doesn't or shouldn't have the rights to this book (especially since he is credited as co-author for most of the material he is indexing) but the "big picture" question got me wondering.....

Well as far as we know TSR never contested it and unless we learn otherwise, as far as we know DA did not surrender it to TSR as part of settling his lawsuit. So if he reprinted it and started selling it again or as a pdf, would they (TSRs successors) have any basis to complain now 30 years late?

[grodog]

IIRC my literary law class in grad school properly, indices, concordances, and other such criticism-based reference materials are distinct from the original copywritten materials they're derived from (bibliographies would also fall into this category), and are therefore copyrighted by the compiler, not the original author.

[busman]

Did anything ever come of this? This sounds like an awesome resource to have. I'd happily undertake making this into a PDF that others could DL and use. Did we ever get a hold of Dave and see if 1) he had the rights, and 2) if he's willing to allow us to make a PDF?

[busman]

I say we do this ourselves, then. Create an Index, that is. I may start on this during the weekend, depending upon how my other 3 projects I've got in the cooker at this point. =)

[grodog]

An online, searchable index that's a wiki or a web page would be a more versatile format to consider.

[philotomy]

I suggest defining it in XML and then using stylesheets to output the XML source-file to HTML *and* PDF. You can use Prince to do this kind of thing.

[blackmoor]

Yes I still have the rights. But the Index is far from being all inclusive since it contains none of newer OD&D products or the DRAGON. Or my own FFC or AIF. It was totally obsolete the years after it was published.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Game Design"

[Deleted]

There is a copy of this for sale on eBay right now. See link in my Ebay thread in the General Board. I don't know if the price is reasonable or not. Since Dave's heirs have the rights it would be cool if it were updated to include the later OD&D products, The Dragon, FFC and AIF.

[Falconer]

IMO, it doesn’t need to be “updated.” If it includes Chainmail, OD&D, the 5 Supplements, and the 7 Strategic Reviews, it’s already a d**ned useful product.

Now, if we were to start a new project from scratch, yes, there are a handful more products I’d like to see included: Warriors of Mars, Lost Caverns of Tsojconth, FFC, TD up through about #6, Ready Ref Sheets, Dungeon Geomorphs.