Plate Armor too cheap?

[Zulgyan]

When I first saw the item price lists in OD&D I was most surprice with the plate's price. Just 50 gp.

That's way to cheap. In all other editions, the price starts around 300 gp, or something like that.

If you buy a Plate (50) and a Shield (10) at first level, you got an incredible AC 2 right for the first adventure. An AC that requires 17+ to hit, in the case of most 1st level critters. It's not so hard to get that with starting gold (3d6x10).


You do you guys think about it?

[jrients]

I prefer a game where the economic differences between a knight and a knave are less pronounced. If the point is to make things hard on starting characters, then I think limiting starting money is the surer way to go.

[Stonegiant]

It does only cost 60gps in B/X and Holmes edition(IIRC). All of the weapons and armor in D&D are way cheaper than their real life counterparts. Also being on a gold standard is very unrealistic as well. Back in the 80's in Dragon Magazine there was an article where the author suggested everyones starting money be 3d6x10 silver pieces and to keep all of the prices except for misc. equipment at their normal gold pieces cost, in this campaign a spear and leather armor is one massive combo.

[thorswulf]

I think that the price works out fine if you are playing with novice gamers. They need all the help they can get! I agree that the armor is vastly underpriced. But then again so are all the other weapons. In a realistic (whatever that is) campaign most fighters would be wearing chainmail at best and only fighters would be using swords-and that as a weapon of last resort! Your basic medieval soldier would use a polearm as his or her primary weapon. Dark ages warriors used spears.

I have considered starting a fighting man with a helmet, shield, spear/polearm, and a dagger.Archers would substitute a bow or crossbow for the shield and polearm. The player would then roll 6d6 for starting gold to purchase further equipment. Does this mean he may not have enough to purchase chainmail, or even a sword? You bet it does! This reflects the realism of the peiod, albeit one on a gold standard. Just some ideas.

[foster1941]

I've occasionally toyed around with the idea of doubling the price of chain-mail (from 30 to 60) and quadrupling the price of plate (from 50 to 200). I also like the idea of magical leather armor and chain-mail (as seen in AD&D and most versions of Classic D&D).

[ffilz]

I've taken to not worrying too much about the costs of non-magical goods. After the first or second adventure, they become mostly irrelevant (unless the player is outfitting an army - but then it doesn't matter all that much since everyone outfitting an army is in the same boat).

I do like the idea of having magic armor other than plate.

Given that the D&D gold standard is so out of touch with any sort of real economics, my feeling is that it's not worth worrying about how much plate armor cost in the real world middle ages. If you want a real medieval simulation, D&D is the wrong rule set for you.

What I think is a bit annoying is that D&D makes chain mostly irrelevant. If you ignore the rule about magic armor encumbrance, then it might have some relevance in that someone might choose to have a 2 worse AC in exchange for 9" move instead of 6" move.

Frank

[calithena]

So, this is a game where an average hit has a 1/2 to 1/3 chance of outright killing a character, and you're worried that first level characters other than magic-users can afford something which will make that 1/3 chance come up 30% less often than it would otherwise?

Tough crowd...

My main beef with plate mail is that it makes PCs look like Arthurian knights in a genre where they should look more like

(a) hard-bitten mercenaries in chain mail with quilted undercoat, or brigandine,

(b) quick-witted rogues in leathers, or

(c) half-nude barbarians/amazons with rippling/supple musculature and statuesque build.

But that's another thread, methinks...

[jrients]

I don't mind getting some Arthurian knights into my peanut butter, but then I always thought of Excalibur as a sword & sorcery flick. I think the answer here is to be a bit on the draconian side when PCs need to climb or jump or swim. I know some medeival recreationist will probably pop up and explain how he can do backflips in his plate armor, but that doesn't change how I would run platemail in my game.

[foster1941]

ffilz said:

If you ignore the rule about magic armor encumbrance, then it might have some relevance in that someone might choose to have a 2 worse AC in exchange for 9" move instead of 6" move.

I should probably know this, but a brief scan through the books didn't turn it up -- where does the magical armor encumbrance rule appear in the OD&D rulebooks (or does it)? I'd like to ignore that rule (and say that someone in magical armor still moves at 6"), and I'd like it even better if I could do so without actually having to change anything in the books.

[calithena]

Speaking of draconian, here are the actual swimming rules:

Plate armor ... 100% chance of drowning
Chain mail ... 80% chance of drowning, you must shed your armor to avoid drowning
Leather armor .... 20% chance of drowning
No armor ... 5% chance of drowning, only if thrown overboard (otherwise you just swim)

[calithena]

Oh yeah, Excalibur was a good fantasy film, and did seem to get an S&S vibe. Not saying it's impossible, just that in D&D it's the almost inevitable default for mechanical reasons.

[ffilz]

Hmm, I might be misremembering the armor and movement rule, or pulling in the rules from AD&D... I suddenly can't find it... Other than in the AD&D DMG where this text exists:


For game purposes all magical armor should be considered as being
virtually weightless - equal to normal clothing, let us assume. This gives
characters so clad a base movement speed equal to an unarmored man.
Magic shields, however, weigh the same as a normal shield of the same
size.


Sorry for any confusion caused...

Frank

[Stonegiant]

Plate mail is really more of chain mail reinforced with plate at key points (chest, elbows, knees primarily with some suits also including the arm above the elbow and the shins). Plate mail makes me think of the Crusades which have IMO a D&D feel about them. The Armor worn in the movie Excalibur would be better described as Plate and Field Plate armor like those found in the UA. Still a great flick and a definite film reference for D&D spirit.

[calithena]

This leads to another interesting segui - 'plate mail' in that sense is known as 'transitional armor' to history buffs and is a very short-term event in the history of warfare, we're talking like 50 years or so of the middle ages between maille and plate armor. And yet because of Gygax's nomenclature, transitional armor aka plate mail is what I think of as 'real' heavy armor now and for the rest of my life...

[thorswulf]

In the DM reference sheets or whatever they're called for AD&D 1st edition there are those illustrations of armor. I think that plate armor as previously mentioned is merely augmented chainmail with plates for added protetion to exposed limbs and the torso. Those illustrations are a tad misleading. Splint mail and banded mail end up looking like a different kind of plate mail. Both splint and banded are really just a coat of plates, or brigandine types of armor worn over the mail, with different kinds of plate reinforcements for the vulnerable parts. Any of the three are really similar, but a plate curaiss is still stronger in many ways.

I visualize armor as whole suits of armor. Chainmail looks like what Heavy Norman Knights would wear, or the early crusaders. Plate mail looks like something out of the early part of the Hundred years war. Gothic plate this stuff aint. But if you look beyond the European armor for a moment consider the following cultural axamples. In India chainmail was quite common-and much lighter and weaker than it's European counterparts. Plate mail in india may be a suit of light chain reinforced with velvet, padded jacket covered in 4 large decorated plates to protect the torso, and steel bracers and vambraces of steel splints. Nifty, and different! Also consider Byzantine and Persian armor. Here heavy horsemen wore mail armor, and superheavy Cataphractos wore scale over chain in some cases. So really the way armor looks is up to how you want it to look in your game. Now where did I put those Ostrich plumes and decorated barzibans....

[foster1941]

Are we sure that AD&D's "plate mail" is really the same thing as D&D and Chainmail's "plate armor"? I have a suspicion that originally "plate armor" was intended to be just what we tend to think of it as (i.e. Gothic "Excalibur" armor) and it was only with AD&D that Gygax (for whatever reason) retconned the AC3 armor to "plate mail" and recategorized actual "plate armor" into AC2 "field plate." Certainly almost every illustration (aside from the aforementioned AD&D DM Adventure Log) of a character in "plate" shows something much closer to AD&D field plate than AD&D plate mail.

If you look at the Chainmail Man-to-Man Combat Table, not only are almost all of the "missing" armor types from AD&D present -- padded armor is listed equivalent to leather armor; banded, studded, and splint mail are all listed as equivalent to chain mail -- but there's also a cryptic reference underneath the "chain mail + shield" heading to "chain +". While I've always dismissed this as being a typographical error, could it perhaps instead be a reference to "reinforced chain mail," i.e. AD&D plate mail? Saying that such plate-reinforced chain mail provides equivalent protection to regular chain mail + a shield whereas actual plate armor is something altogether different?

[Stonegiant]

There is a reinforced chain mail that was worn by Norse mercenaries in the service of the Byzantine Emporer, historical plate mail was introduced in the late 12th century(IIRC) and during the 13th and 14th centuries more and more plate was added to reinforce it. This may be a question that needs to be handed off to EGG, Kask, and Mentzer for clarification.

[calithena]

That's a good idea wrt Chainmail Foster. The OCE equipment list has Plate Mail on it as well, though, so the use of the term predates OD&D. Anyone want to check a pre-Tolkien redaction Men & Magic to see if it says Plate Mail there too?

"Plate Mail," not an actual term prior to D&D, can only be one thing in the Eurocentric context of the original game - 14th century/early hundred years war transitional armor.

But the idea that D&D Plate Mail = Chainmail Chain+ is still a good one. Might be worth asking Gary.

[jrients]

foster1941 said:

If you look at the Chainmail Man-to-Man Combat Table, not only are almost all of the "missing" armor types from AD&D present -- padded armor is listed equivalent to leather armor; banded, studded, and splint mail are all listed as equivalent to chain mail -- but there's also a cryptic reference underneath the "chain mail + shield" heading to "chain +". While I've always dismissed this as being a typographical error, could it perhaps instead be a reference to "reinforced chain mail," i.e. AD&D plate mail? Saying that such plate-reinforced chain mail provides equivalent protection to regular chain mail + a shield whereas actual plate armor is something altogether different?

So armor can be abstracted with no real work:

Light Armor: leather, padded
Medium Armor: chain, scale, banded, studded, splint
Heavy Armor: plate

This method makes introducing new armor types pretty simple. Want a chain shirt that Conan types can wear and not be slowed down? That's just another Light Armor. Extra thick leather armor used by gobin warg-knights? Medium Armor with different materials than standard. Etc.

[WSmith]

jrients said:

So armor can be abstracted with no real work:

Light Armor: leather, padded
Medium Armor: chain, scale, banded, studded, splint
Heavy Armor: plate

This method makes introducing new armor types pretty simple. Want a chain shirt that Conan types can wear and not be slowed down? That's just another Light Armor. Extra thick leather armor used by gobin warg-knights? Medium Armor with different materials than standard. Etc.

I like this because a more simplistic weapons vs. armor table could be crafted if one wanted that type of detail. Granted, I haven't looked at the one in Greyhawk in a few weeks, but I could almost see a chart listed by armor type rather than armor class being easier to grasp, even though type and class are pretty much the same thing on OD&D.

[tgamemaster1975]

Yeah, plate armor is too cheap, it starts at 100 GP IMC and I have also revised some other prices too. I like to keep them in lighter armor and more mobile. I have never liked the whole plate armor thing, since going down into a dungeon, where you may need to climb some, crawl through tight spaces or run for your life. It just never made since that you would use plate armor, its con outweighed the pro for me.

[philotomy]

I think armor and weapons are undervalued at the listed prices, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing for starting PCs. I think it's good that a 1st level Fighting Man can buy decent armor; after all, at this point he doesn't have a significant hit point advantage over a MU, doesn't have a significant "to hit" advantage over a MU, doesn't do significantly more damage than a MU, and doesn't have spells. (All of the above assumes TLB hit dice and damage.)

Perhaps access to low-cost weapons and armor is part of PC background, and the price list doesn't reflect the market at large. A first level Veteran, (or an Acolyte of the Temple) would use the standard price list to reflect this, but later, would use 'market price.'

Not by the book, and probably full of holes in one way or another, but I'm just throwing the idea out there.

[makofan]

I like it being cheap - you can choose between protection or mobility. In my online campaign just started, one player bought plate armor, and the other two bought chain. There are many instances in the dungeon where having plate is a burden, just as there are many instances where it is a boon. The great thing is, no matter what the players choose, they will run into situations where they wish they hadn't made that choice.

[Deleted]

Yeah, it's cheap & unrealistic, but, then again, this is fantasy. If it was reality, they probably could never afford it anyway, & besides, it'd be too heavy & hot while they're busy toiling away at their lord's demesne anywhoo. As for a character in armor, I prefer chain. Not too heavy, but offering a little more protection than leather (which is also a good option, IMO). Plate is just too much.

[tgamemaster1975]

oltekos said:

Yeah, it\'s cheap & unrealistic, but, then again, this is fantasy. If it was reality, they probably could never afford it anyway, & besides, it\'d be too heavy & hot while they\'re busy toiling away at their lord\'s demesne anywhoo. As for a character in armor, I prefer chain. Not too heavy, but offering a little more protection than leather (which is also a good option, IMO). Plate is just too much.

Great post! I like chain as preferable to plate. I just can\'t imagine adventures running around in plate. Knights yes but not your average fighting man.

[dwayanu]

I'm the one who chose plate mail for Makofan's game. Because move rates are being based on armor type, I'll slow the party to the 6" rate. In a "sink or swim" situation, I'll probably sink like a rock. However it's figured, I won't be able to carry as much loot as the folks in chainmail.

My character lucked out with 7 hit points, and my first thought was to go light -- maybe just leather and shield. Then I decided that having plenty of gold as well, I might as well spend it and play a "tank" type.

Considering the amount of treasure one is likely (even with Vol. 1 XP for monster-slaying) to accumulate before reaching 2nd level, the expense factor rarely remains very long a real hurdle for PCs in my experience -- even if plate mail costs several hundred GP.

[Red Baron]

Oct 24, 2007 12:19:08 GMT -6 calithena said:

So, this is a game where an average hit has a 1/2 to 1/3 chance of outright killing a character, and you're worried that first level characters other than magic-users can afford something which will make that 1/3 chance come up 30% less often than it would otherwise?

Tough crowd...

My main beef with plate mail is that it makes PCs look like Arthurian knights in a genre where they should look more like

(a) hard-bitten mercenaries in chain mail with quilted undercoat, or brigandine,

(b) quick-witted rogues in leathers, or

(c) half-nude barbarians/amazons with rippling/supple musculature and statuesque build.

But that's another thread, methinks...

Interpret "plate armor" as a jack of plates rather than a full suit of plate.

Oct 23, 2007 9:47:57 GMT -6 Stonegiant said:

It does only cost 60gps in B/X and Holmes edition(IIRC). All of the weapons and armor in D&D are way cheaper than their real life counterparts. Also being on a gold standard is very unrealistic as well. Back in the 80's in Dragon Magazine there was an article where the author suggested everyones starting money be 3d6x10 silver pieces and to keep all of the prices except for misc. equipment at their normal gold pieces cost, in this campaign a spear and leather armor is one massive combo.

Or just take away the x10 multiplier and give them 3d6 coins period.

 -- The guy who rolls a three and heads into the dungeon with only a spear and a torch..

[Red Baron]

To increase the price of armor without doctoring the equipment list:

	OD&D	Variant	OD&D	Variant
AC 3	50 gp	95 gp	Plate	Plate, chain & leather
AC 5	30 gp	45 gp	Chain	Chain & leather
AC 7	15 gp	15 gp	Leather	Leather
AC 9	free	free	none	none

[Red Baron]

All fighting-men wear arming doublets or jacks or gambesons. Over that, some fighting-men wear maille. Over that knights wear plate armor.

[waysoftheearth]

...which might also imply it takes one turn to get into/out of leather (aka arming doublet, jack, gambeson), two turns to get into/out of mail, and three turns to get into/out of plate.