The Morality of Orcs and Goblins

[waysoftheearth]

My impression of Orcs and Goblins has built up organically over the decades from any number of fantasy sources.

So, just now as I was discussing the nature of Orcs and Goblins in another forum, I thought to myself I had better check up what the "official" D&D stance is on the matter. Pulling out my AD&D monster manual, I was quite surprised to find the Orcs, Hobgoblins and Goblins are all listed as Lawful Evil.

LAWFUL Evil? That doesn't sound like any Orc or Goblin I have ever met, I thought, and pulled out my copy of Holmes. Holmes, thankfully, lists Orcs as Chaotic Evil. But Hobgoblins and Goblin are still considered Lawful Evil.

This was still not what I really wanted to see, so I fished out my Men & Magic only to find that while Goblins and Hobgoblins are listed as Chaotic, Orcs are listed as NEUTRAL or Chaotic!

In my imagination, all of Goblin-kind are nasty, treacherous and violent critters. But apparently, this just ain't so!

How do the folks here play their Orcs and Goblins?

edit : fixed typo

[fitz]

I don't really see how fundamentally Chaotic creatures could manage to maintain any kind of stable society, yet orcs and goblins are supposed to do so. Therefore, at best I'd class them as Neutral.

[waysoftheearth]

Defining alignment can be a contentious issue to say the least! I guess it comes down to whether you interpret alignments as relative or absolute. If you take them as "relative to human sensibilities", then chaotic societies are at least potentially plausible...

For my part, I almost always use the collective Goblinoids as loosely organised war bands who have little respect for anything other than brute force and fear. Their own society would be tumultuous indeed, with brutal warlords, tyrants and despots breaking and changing "the rules" to suit themselves. Chaotic for sure!

[Finarvyn]

What is this "good" and "evil" thing. My Men & Magic only lists "Law" or "Neutral" or "Chaos."

Remember that the origins of alignment were mostly "us" against "them" and that it's possible that some orcs didn't take sides. I know that the authors of OD&D had zero influence by Lord of the Rings (according to "after the fact" editorials and such) but one could argue that while Mordor's Red-Eye Orcs were Chaotic that perhaps Isengard's White-Hand Orcs were Neutral. (No Uruk-hai in my Monsters & Treasure, either.)

I'm pretty sure that Dave's First Fantasy Campaign book mentions Red-Eye and White-Hand orcs, although the page reference escapes me at the moment. It's possible that this is the reason for both Chaos and Neutral orcs.

[piper]

Apr 4, 2010 6:10:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I'm pretty sure that Dave's First Fantasy Campaign book mentions Red-Eye and White-Hand orcs, although the page reference escapes me at the moment. It's possible that this is the reason for both Chaos and Neutral orcs.

FFC p. 62

[Random]

Apr 4, 2010 6:10:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

What is this "good" and "evil" thing. My Men & Magic only lists "Law" or "Neutral" or "Chaos."

We all know the AD&D Monster Manual is really geared for OD&D.

Anyways, it's something to do with structure of society. Trogs are the only humanoids I see that are both chaotic and tribal, the other tribal humanoids are lawful. Kobolds seem to be the only lawful humanoids not mentioned as adept at mining.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 4, 2010 7:09:47 GMT -6 Piper said:

Apr 4, 2010 6:10:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I'm pretty sure that Dave's First Fantasy Campaign book mentions Red-Eye and White-Hand orcs, although the page reference escapes me at the moment. It's possible that this is the reason for both Chaos and Neutral orcs.

FFC p. 62

Page 62 is a map of the 10th level of the Blackmoor Dungeons, according to my printing of FFC.

[piper]

Turn to the back of the book, then page back 1 or 2 leafs. The first line on the page reads "To capture a dragon ..."

In my edition, there is a graphic of a tentacled beast sinking a Viking longship on that page, with the caption:

Battle with the Great Serpent of the of the River, one ship was lost.

[jjarvis]

Apr 3, 2010 23:30:51 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Pulling out my AD&D monster manual, I was quite surprised to find the Orcs, Hobgoblins and Goblins are all listed as Lawful Evil.

LAWFUL Evil? That doesn't sound like any Orc or Goblin I have ever met...In my imagination, all of Goblin-kind are nasty, treacherous and violent critters. But apparently, this just ain't so!

There isn't a single bit of alignment Lawful Evil that keeps a goblinoid from being nasty, treacherous and violent creatures. Lawful evil goblinoids are agents of the Leviathan, the unending tide of dark warriors threatening to overrun the world.

[castiglione]

Apr 4, 2010 0:53:06 GMT -6 fitz said:

I don't really see how fundamentally Chaotic creatures could manage to maintain any kind of stable society, yet orcs and goblins are supposed to do so. Therefore, at best I'd class them as Neutral.

I guess a lot would depend on how you define lawful, neutral and chaotic.

You could still have a stable society with a lot of conniving and backstabbing being the norm if there's still a structure that everyone still respects enough to hold everything together.

Of course, one could argue that the real connivers and backstabbers would eventually undermine that structure and cause everything to come crashing down.

Of course, of course, one could argue that such a society would probably attach such terrible punishments to anyone who attempts to undermine this structure that the citizens of such a society would either:

a) Not even try to undermine that structure
b) They would attempt to undermine that structure in a really subtle way so, at least, at face value, that structure is still respected, etc.

[capheind]

To me lawful implies a love/loyalty/service to the current order of things, chaotic is anyone/thing that wants to tear that order down. So even an organized foreign military is Chaotic in the eyes of the reigning king.

[tavis]

In the later editions that inevitably color my thinking, hobgoblins always have the feel of disciplined, tyrannical hierarchically-organized soldiers. I always thought that was either because of their Monster Manual illustration, where their arms and armor are suggestive of well-supplied troops, or to distinguish them from the goblin rabble they whip into shape and the berseker-like orcs. I had no idea all of those guys were LE in AD&D, although come to think of it the orc troops I commanded in Gygax's Battle for the Brown Hills Chainmail scenario formed up in ranks and had their own command structure just like the human and elf armies.

[ragnorakk]

Me too on the thinking colored by later editions. I think of humanoids alignment mostly in terms Holmes Basic. Orcs are chaotic and evil, but a lot of creatures are listed with 'dual alignments' (chaotic evil and neutral dopplegangers, neutral dragons, neutral giants, neutral lycanthropes, chaotic good and neutral pixies, not to bring up the bandits!) and I interpret this as roughly a 50/50 split if a percentage is not given. I like this because it allows me to justify keeping the inhabitants of the world mostly neutral, downplaying the importance of alignment differences. I don't want to turn orcs into lawful creatures (good tendencies), but I hardly ever hesitate to turn a humanoid into neutral creatures.

[jacar]

I play Orcslings as having there own agendas and motivations. They are not evil, but rather misunderstood by those that hate them. "I fear what I don't understand and i hate what I fear."

I played in a campaign years ago at a convention in Roanoke VA. The GM was running fantasy trip. It was a military campaign similar to OD&D of yesteryear. We had to travel through the Orc lands to capture some renegade human. We were invariably captured by a Orc tribe, had to fight a ritual combat to gain an audience to the Chief. we nominated our Monk to figt the Orc champion. One roundhouse kick later (critical success!) we were off to negotiate with the Chief!

It was the first time (and the only time) I ever played a game where Orcs did not have some feral hatred of humans and other outsiders. This is a fine way to do things.

John