Amber (and other) Diceless

[Finarvyn]

This may not be an "old school" game by its publishing date (1985 is in that gray area) but I think the rules-light nature of Amber Diceless is very old school in philosophy.

It's also one of my favorite game systems, so I'm willing to stretch my criteria a little.

Also it was mentioned in another thread and I didn't want to get that one too far from OD&D, so I thought making a thread of its own would keep discussion more on topic in both places.

Here was my original comment regarding ADRP:

admin said:

Run them through a game of Amber Diceless and see what they do. That's the best way to break out of the "must have a rule for it" syndrome.

[Finarvyn]

This prompted a sub-theme of diceless inside the main thread.

admin said:

jamesm said:

Not likely. Diceless gaming is a step too far for me and even attempting it would probably frighten away my players even more than I already have.

Well, what I was thinking is that when you run a diceless game the players have to think about actions rather than dice. Even if you run a 10-minute situation (perhaps characters meeting in a tavern) and let the players know that it has to be played out rather than rolled through -- this may help them break the bonds of being rules-heavy.

If your group isn't ready for a diceless game I wouldn't push too hard, either, because you don't want to scare them away. The point is to let them see how they can make decisions without having an extensive skill list handy to tell them what they can and cannot do.

Just a thought...

crimhthanthegreat said:

I have never tried diceless, is there any free online game where I could take a quick look at a diceless game?

My answer to this is a little complex. If you are interested in the Amber Diceless rules specifically, they are not posted anywhere for free as far as I know. You an buy PDF versions on DriveThru or RPGNow or similar places, and sometimes actual paper copies on e-bay.

There are other diceless systems out there, some (Action Exploits) are free. None of them are IMO as neat as the Amber rules. Amber Diceless has a very simple conflict resolution system and many of the other games out there try to add layers of complexity for "realism" purposes.

To me, Amber Diceless is the OD&D of diceless games. It was first and by far the best. One place to look for general ideas on Amber Diceless is here. If that doesn't help, I'll be more than happy to explain some of the details right here!

Hope that helps!

EDIT: Fixed some typos.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Well duh! I forgot all about your other forum. ;D But I also didn't know that it was available in a pdf either so thank you for that info. I will see about getting the pdf of it and taking a look at it.

[dwayanu]

Pardon me, but I must take issue with your equation of "rules light" with "old school." One can find a heap of games at The Forge that are RL in reaction against the "rules heaviness" of D&D -- and self-consciously New School in their emphasis on narrative and character exploration.

Amber Diceless seems to me rather one of the pioneering forebears of the "Art School" .

The diceless aspect makes it literally impossible to "let the dice stand." There's an analogy in letting the outcome be simply and quantitatively deterministic ("Your Warfare score is worse, so you lose!"). However, not only is that discouraged but even when it is the case the emphasis is clearly on "telling a story."

A "story-telling" game can be lots of fun, but it's a departure from what I consider "old school."

It's a matter of degree, certainly. D&D leaves much to referee judgement, and combats are more entertaining with a bit of colorful description (not just "miss" and "hit" and "x points of damage"). The main emphasis, though, is on finding out what happens in accordance with the toss of the dice, not on deciding what happens -- much less deciding on a basis of what makes "dramatic sense" (which may not figure much in Amber Diceless theory but seems to creep in in practice).

Also contra OS is the business of "character build."

[Finarvyn]

To quickly summorize how Amber Diceless works:

It is assumed that there are three major types of conflict -- warfare (anything involving weapons), strength (anything athletic) and psyche (anything with mental powers) -- and each character has a ranking in these three areas. The fourth attribute is Endurance, which is a catch-all and works for all area of conflict.

The basic version of confict resolution is that the better attribute wins. Except...

The bulk of the rules deal with the "except" part. If two attributes are really close (GM decision) then Endurance will determine who lasts longer and wins. If one player has put together an elaborate scheme and prepared ahead, that might be enough to tip the balance (GM decision again). The GM knows all of the stats for all of the PCs and NPCs and judges what happens based on the numbers and the way the player plays the game.

The job of the GM is often to provide clues and details to help the players realize when things are going well or going poorly. There should never be instant kills, but the players should find out they are taking wounds while being unable to inflict any of their own. Now the player can make some choices. Maybe you fight, maybe you run. Maybe you try to bluff your way in the hopes that he will back down. That's where role playing comes in, because there aren't any dice for that "lucky roll".

For example. Crim, suppose that YOU are in a bar and some guy picks a fight. YOU size him up and try to compare what you see with what you know you can do. You do this without knowing the guy's level or probable hit points. If you think you can take the guy you act one way but if you think he can whip you, you act another. That's the way diceless works. As you play you start to build a mental ladder of who you encounter -- maybe you can beat orcs but you think ogres are a challenge so you have a reference the next time you encounter one of those.

As an added note, being a diceless GM offers some interesting challenges. As an OD&D dungeon master, if I get stuck in the plot I can just toss some wandering monsters at the players and think while they roll dice to kill the beasties. This isn't really an option in diceless because whether the players can beat a monster is mostly determined before the encounter, and the GM has to focus on giving out appropriate information so the players can make good choices.

Anyway, it's an interesting style of play. I'm sure it's not for everyone, but our group was afraid to try it but once they tried diceless they loved it.

Any other questions?

[Finarvyn]

dwayanu, I didn't see your post until after I made my most recent one so I'll address your thoughts here.

Okay. I'm fine with your notion that ADRP isn't "old school". I didn't mean to imply that all rules light systems were OS. For me, when I want to get away from games that are stuffy and full of rules and exceptions, I turn to OD&D, ADRP or the "roll and keep" version of 7th Sea. In all of these cases, the rules tend to hide behind the action and I can run a game without drowning in skills and feats and charts and the like. Probably my bias towards those three systems influences my notion that they are OS, even though each was written about a decade after the previous.

When I look at many newer game systems, the numbers define the character. When I look at games such as OD&D, ADRP or 7th Sea the actions define the character.

That's what I had in mind.

[dwayanu]

There's a similar but usually probabilistic approach rather oddly called a "matrix game," basically Free Kriegspiel redux.

A matrix game typically involves multiple players in competition, with the Game Master's role more definitely that of a referee.

The players present arguments that the GM weighs to create odds for a die-roll. One could easily make the determination diceless.

In a sense, such methods go way past "old" to a "primeval school" of collaborative story-telling (as in the perennial childhood game of "Let's Pretend"). In the relevant, D&D-informed sense of RPGs, though, their implementation to such a degree as in Amber Diceless is evolutionary (if not revolutionary).

I much prefer the diceless way to games such as The Pool or Risus, in which there's so much abstract bother with bunches of dice that I find it terribly distracting unless the story is set in a casino! The relationship between mechanisms and story is (at least to me) notably different in Tunnels & Trolls.

[Finarvyn]

It's hard to convince players to let go of the dice, and certainly diceless means that the players have to trust that the GM will be impartial and fair, but once they get the hang of it most players in my experience have enjoyed Amber.

I won't make the claim that diceless is for everyone, and I won't throw away my dice and OD&D rulebooks, but it makes an interesting diversion from the same-old adventure styles.

[coffee]

admin said:

It's hard to convince players to let go of the dice, and certainly diceless means that the players have to trust that the GM will be impartial and fair, but once they get the hang of it most players in my experience have enjoyed Amber.

I won't make the claim that diceless is for everyone, and I won't throw away my dice and OD&D rulebooks, but it makes an interesting diversion from the same-old adventure styles.

I think you make a good point here, vis a vis old school.

Old school games can also be defined as 'high trust' games. You have to trust the GM implicitly. He holds your fate in his hands.

As an aside, I remember an AD&D game in the mid to late 80s when I told the other players specifically "He's the DM; of course you can trust him." As I saw out of the corner of my eye the look of gratitude on the DM's face, I heard an outburst from most of the other players. Much of it can be summed up by the one guy's comment "Anybody who trusts the DM must be stupid!"

Let me clarify.

I trust the DM to let me know what my character sees, hears, etc. I trust him not to just screw with me with his hidden rolls behind the screen.

I also trust him to try to screw with me through his NPCs -- they are not to be trusted!


But these days, with the non-old school games, that trust is gone. It's like the Knights of the Dinner Table; both sides are trying to screw the other. Low trust games, where everything has to be spelled out for the players' protection, are the opposite of old school.

You don't get rules arguments in high trust games. The GM makes the call and you get on with things; he's doing what's best for his game.

And I think that's an important part of what old school means. At least to me.

[grodog]

Amber's a lot of fun to play, and I've enjoyed two or three games (only one of which was really a campaign in length).

If you're interested in diceless games in general, Fin, you may also want to check out the 1e version of Heaven & Earth (from my old company Event Horizon Productions): the game's setting is Twin-Peaks-meets-the-Christian-apocalypse (as with many indie rpgs published in the middle to late '90s), but the mechanics could easily be used in other genres/settings.

[Finarvyn]

Grodog, is there a link for this or shall I hunt through e-bay? I've vaguely heard of Heaven and Earth (I always assumed it was similar to In Nomine, which I have) and didn't realize that it was a diceless game.

[grodog]

Only the 1st edition was diceless (though we did have a deck of fate mechanic so it wasn't completely non-random); I was able to find a copy on eBay for $17 @ cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330178471057 if you're interested. I dug around on the internet archive, and it doesn't like like much from our sold site is still around, and what is extant doesn't describe the system.

I've been meaning to dig around in my personal archives to see if I have any promo info/good summaries/quick start rules/etc. from BITD (because I mentioned the game to someone over on Circus Maximus and they were also interested), but won't be able to do that until after the holidays....

[grodog]

Actually, looks like Noble Knight has it for $15 + shipping: www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_11505286_A_InventoryID_E_2147411715_A_ProductLineID_E__A_ManufacturerID_E__A_CategoryID_E__A_GenreID_E_

edit - apparently the link's too bid, but you get the idea If you go to NK and search for "phythyon" you'll find the book

[Finarvyn]

grodog said:

If you're interested in diceless games in general, Fin, you may also want to check out the 1e version of Heaven & Earth

I went to Noble Knight and bought a copy. Too early to know if I like it for sure or not.

1. There seem to be a lot of stats, compared to Amber.

2. I like the general "Stat+Skill compared to difficulty" concept. The game mechanic seems pretty smooth.

3. I really like a lot of the source material in the book, and may use some of that material even if I don't end up running H&E.

4. Not so happy with the graphics of the book. The B&W format seems to make some of the pictures hard to see, and the H&E logo needs more contrast on the character sheet.

An interesting read, overall. More updates when I get farther along....

[grodog]

There's actually a Yahoo group dedicated to H&E, if you're interested, Fin; one of the guys I know over on yog-sothoth.com mentioned it to me a few months ago. It's @ groups.yahoo.com/group/potterslake/

[Finarvyn]

Thanks for the tip, and for the link. I'll wander over there to see what sort of discussion can be found. H&E has some interesting ideas. (Oh, and I noticed you got some sort of playtest credit or some such.

[badger2305]

People did hear that Erick Wujcik is dying of cancer, right? It's very very sad.

[Finarvyn]

badger2305 said:

People did hear that Erick Wujcik is dying of cancer, right? It's very very sad.

I did hear about this. Cancer in the pancreas that apparently has spread into his liver. I'm not a doctor (but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once ) but this doesn't sound very good at all.

One of my fondest gaming memories of all time is playing at a convention where Erick was GM. He has a style and vitatlity that simply brings the game to life....

[coffee]

admin said:

I'm not a doctor (but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once )

So help me, I got that one! (Sheesh, I watch waaay too much TV...)

Sorry to hear about Eric. The only game of his I have it Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and I never played it (or, indeed, even finished reading it).

[Deleted]

Just reading through old threads and this one was just sitting there and waiting for someone to necro it.

There are a couple of Amber places to look at online, if anyone is interested.

This one is a self-announced "official" Amber forum, but as far as I can tell it's not actually sanctioned by the current owners of the license. (Some guys called "Diceless by Design" who acquired the Amber rights, made a web page, then apparently vanished years ago. But they still sell the rules on some of the PDF sales sites. Strange.)

This one is a lot friendlier but seems mostly to be dead. From what I can gather they have lost their forum a few times and lost many of the older posts. And maybe some of their posters along the way.

This one is dead as well, but I recognize a few of the same names as post here on the OD&D boards. I guess ADRP author Erick Wujcik posted there shortly before he died, and he seems to have given this place his approval as well.

Anyone play Amber? Seems like a great game to get folks talking about.

[Finarvyn]

Seems like a few folks here play, but overall the Amber franchise seems to be dying. Not many of Zelazny's books can be found in bookstores. Many of the links that used to be great ADRP camapign sites are now dead. Very little "buzz" around the 'net anymore about ADRP. Kind of sad, actually.

[pineappleleader]

Another Diceless game:
Active Exploits Diceless Roleplaying-Special Edition-Take 2

IIRC the PDF is free.

The only setting I have for this is Corps: Diceless Conspiracy Roleplaying. There are some others.

It's put out by PIG. www.pigames.net