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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 16, 2010 10:09:09 GMT -6
Does anyone know if there is still a way to buy a copy of the Pete Mullen cover WhiteBox book from lulu? Mythmere's site no longer seems to have a link. I'm really excited about Brave Halfling's actual boxed set of the WB (and eventual single-volume book version), but it occured to me that I never actually got a copy of the lulu version and I thought I might buy one, but no luck so far.
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Post by jeffb on Jan 16, 2010 16:32:17 GMT -6
Noticed that too yesterday- and you cannot order a copy of core rules either (printed). I guess you have to go to black blade for that (along with the Spire module)
Chaps my butt cos I wanted to order some more stuff from lulu. I have a coupon AND want the Mullen cover WB AND Spire, and I hate buying one book here, one book there, one book over there, etc. and having to pay multiple shipping costs.
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Post by Random on Jan 16, 2010 16:39:43 GMT -6
Noticed that too yesterday- and you cannot order a copy of core rules either (printed). I guess you have to go to black blade for that (along with the Spire module) Chaps my butt cos I wanted to order some more stuff from lulu. I have a coupon AND want the Mullen cover WB AND Spire, and I hate buying one book here, one book there, one book over there, etc. and having to pay multiple shipping costs. That's why we need all the old-school publishers to hop on the bandwagon and sell through Noble Knight.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Jan 16, 2010 16:43:15 GMT -6
I don't have any control over the first printing, but I know that Matt wouldn't want anyone buying the "old version" a week or so before the new one comes out. I think there were some complaints about that when the 3rd printing of the CR came out.
I don't have the 2nd printing available on Lulu yet because I'm waiting for my proof copies to arrive (shipped yesterday). And I would have liked to have used that coupon code on them as well.
I'm sure Matt will take care of you guys.
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 20, 2010 14:21:49 GMT -6
I had to have a Pete Mullen cover on my 2nd printing. I must confess. I took the covers from the 1st print and put them on the 2nd print, then I edited out the blank pages in the pdf and went to Staples. The binding seems tighter than Lulu's and was $4 for a perfect binding. It was $8 for the book.
I hope to buy the boxed sets from BHP, I support John's efforts, I just needed another White Box book for a game and I really, really like the Pete Mullen cover.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 20, 2010 15:30:10 GMT -6
Well, given that I really enjoy Mullen's cover as well, if it was alright with Fin & John, I could put the files together and prep. an alternate cover version for printing--like what LL had with their red cover. Not to diminish Allen's awesome artwork for both the booklets, the boxed set, and the single volume!--but to celebrate Mullen's evocative style.
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Post by geordie on Jan 20, 2010 15:54:05 GMT -6
Well, given that I really enjoy Mullen's cover as well, if it was alright with Fin & John, I could put the files together and prep. an alternate cover version for printing--like what LL had with their red cover. Not to diminish Allen's awesome artwork for both the booklets, the boxed set, and the single volume!--but to celebrate Mullen's evocative style. That would be great !!! Like bat, I would really like the choice of having the Pete Mullen cover - my 1st ed. softcover is bashed up already and it's my favourite.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 20, 2010 16:05:03 GMT -6
Just a mockup I had laying around: And on the subject of covers, it'd be hella cool to have a wraparound like: What is it about that art style? Is it the pastel colors? The soft gradients? The fact that forms almost completely lack distinct lines?
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 20, 2010 16:59:48 GMT -6
Is that Hannes Bok, Verhaden? It looks like his crazy, yet awesome style.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 20, 2010 17:25:37 GMT -6
Not sure, though I bet it is. If not, it's a d**n good likeness.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Jan 20, 2010 19:59:56 GMT -6
Okay, when we put the single-volume version of the WB 2nd printing up (any day now), I will make sure there is a perfect-bound and a hardbound option with Pete's original art. But it will only be available for about six weeks.
I will take a bit of work because Pete's art was for a 8.5" x 11" book and not a 6" x 9."
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 21, 2010 5:32:20 GMT -6
Yay! I will buy this from you as well!
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Post by chgowiz on Jan 21, 2010 8:20:18 GMT -6
Guys... I'd like to point out that the artist, Mark Allen, who put a lot of time and work into the 2nd printing cover is on this board and reading this.
I'm reading this whole thing go down and I'm thinking to myself "Hey... that would be like the artist of the orange spine PHB being sat down in a meeting and everyone else going on about how they're going to put the original Demon Idol back."
I don't know, it just feels... I know Mullen has fans and the free PDF allows you to change stuff, but this... this selling of a run that replaces Allen's cover with Mullen's cover just feels like we just took a dump on the artist who was the 2nd printing cover artist, put a lot of time into it and deserves to have his cover be THE cover for 2p.
I have a feeling that doesn't feel so good. I know I have knots in my stomach now just thinking about it.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Jan 21, 2010 8:44:11 GMT -6
Guys... I'd like to point out that the artist, Mark Allen, who put a lot of time and work into the 2nd printing cover is on this board and reading this. I'm reading this whole thing go down and I'm thinking to myself "Hey... that would be like the artist of the orange spine PHB being sat down in a meeting and everyone else going on about how they're going to put the original Demon Idol back." I don't know, it just feels... I know Mullen has fans and the free PDF allows you to change stuff, but this... this selling of a run that replaces Allen's cover with Mullen's cover just feels like we just took a dump on the artist who was the 2nd printing cover artist, put a lot of time into it and deserves to have his cover be THE cover for 2p. I have a feeling that doesn't feel so good. I know I have knots in my stomach now just thinking about it. I agree completely. The only reason I decided to make it available for a few weeks is because, Marv paid Pete for the original cover art and he deserves to see it on his copy of WB. I have expressed my deep regret to Mark about it and, though I'm sure it hurts him, he tells me that he understands. Mark is a fantastic artist who creates exactly what I ask him to create within all the specific dimensions and such in a timely manner as well. I am proud to work with him and more than happy to pay him for his work. You have no idea how much easier his professionalism has made my job as a publisher.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 21, 2010 9:36:25 GMT -6
I feel a bit responsible for pushing the idea of an alternate cover printing, but honestly I don't think anyone means any disrespect to Mr. Allen. His artwork on the booklets, chgowiz's Quick Start, the boxed set, AND the single volume paperback/hardback is simply wonderful. I can't begin to tell you how elated I was when I saw the runners on the side of the WB boxed set--that's what I'm going to see--that's what everyone is going to see--when I put that thing on my bookshelf!
I'll outright say that I prefer Mullen's snowy giants cover. I like it. That doesn't mean I hate Allen's dragon cover. I like it too. I'll probably end up owning BOTH, using both, and showing both off to prospective players.
Conversely, chgowiz, what about the "feelings" of the guy who did the original cover that was replaced with the orange spine cover? What about Rob's 1st edition layout that was replaced with my 2nd edition layout? What about Pete's cover that was replaced with Allen's?
Old Coke? New Coke? Old Dominoes? New Dominoes? 1st edition? 4th edition? What is it about opinions? They're like...
If you accept that some people didn't like Mullen's cover and love Allen's, you have to accept the reverse.
Coleston's kindly decided to sell an alternate along with the original for a short period of time. I'm sure it won't be advertised or used in promo pictures, etc. And if it makes people feel better, I'll setup the file for only the paperback. You'll still get Mr. Allen's cover solely for the hardback, the digest booklets sold by BHP, and the boxed set.
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Post by chgowiz on Jan 21, 2010 9:44:09 GMT -6
verhaden - it's not me that you should be asking, it's the two artists. They're the ones who were affected. I was pointing out that we should be aware of that as we go about talking about things like this and make decisions.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 21, 2010 10:20:27 GMT -6
Fair enough. Hard work deserves to be met with respect and consideration.
But I still fail to see a problem with the possibility of an alternate cover. It's addition. Another option. More incentive to support BHP and Mythmere Games. More S&W books floating around. It's not subtraction. It's not elimination. It's not denial of access or a limiting of options. And frankly, given that both the text and cover are freely available and distributed, people with the will can do it anyway, throw it up on Lulu as their own private document, and print away while nobody's the wiser.
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Post by chgowiz on Jan 21, 2010 10:34:20 GMT -6
Fair enough. Hard work deserves to be met with respect and consideration. But I still fail to see a problem with the possibility of an alternate cover. It's addition. Another option. More incentive to support BHP and Mythmere Games. More S&W books floating around. It's not subtraction. It's not elimination. It's not denial of access or a limiting of options. And frankly, given that both the text and cover are freely available and distributed, people with the will can do it anyway, throw it up on Lulu as their own private document, and print away while nobody's the wiser. It's not the possibility of another cover. It's just the way that I see both artists being treated. Each version of the iconic D&D books has an artist's signature. While many may have wanted Trampier's artwork on the Orange Spine or 2e, that didn't happen. So we now have Easley's work on 2e. People had strong feelings about the covers. However, how do you think Easley would have felt if TSR, after telling Easley "You da man!", suddenly said "Oh, we're going to release 2e with Trampier's cover... for a few weeks. Get 'em while they're hot!" Put yourself in both artist's shoes. It's not about restricting or giving more options. It's the way business is done, professionalism is achieved and the way we treat people and their works. While the OSR community may view these works as commodities and open source works to be sliced and diced, people are putting hard work and emotions into these things. I think being aware of that and treating everyone with some respect is a thing that will bring people to the OSR, not drive them away. Tramp said "I'm going to go drive a cab - f**k y'all". Mark's not there yet, so he'll be nice but I'm sure he's pretty hurt that everyone was in a hurry to kick him out of the way. Maybe you don't see/feel the issue with that, Verhaden, but there are many who will. I think being aware of that hurts no one.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 21, 2010 11:11:57 GMT -6
I dare say that I've probably put more man hours into editing and layout for two versions of WhiteBox and one version of the Core Rules than any artist has for both products. We're talking months here--not weeks or hours. And I did that without getting paid or even receiving complementary copies of the books. (Not complaining.)
Now, a few months ago, when I found out that Mythmere asked Kramer to make some changes to the Core Rules layout to prep for the 3rd printing--because I was not only burnt out and bogged down preparing for an EPA audit at my new job as a laboratory analyst--I wasn't too happy. I wasn't asked if I could hurry and incorporate some changes. I didn't agree with some of the changes. I didn't like some changes to the cover. And then I acted like an immature baby and sent a nasty PM to Mythmere about it.
And I regretted writing it immediately after I sent it. I was probably too busy to really help. Kramer is a professional and I really liked his work on OSRIC. The changes he made were appropriate. A new print edition was necessary to help get it into distribution. People did what they thought was the best course of action, and acted accordingly. "A good decision today is better than the perfect decision tomorrow."
That being said, today, if someone were to release their own layout of either S&W book, and it garnered enough attention that BHP or BBP decided to print and support the alternate along or instead of mine--I wouldn't bat an eye. It's not about me. It's not about the business. It's about bringing an OOP old school game back to life--keeping the text perpetually available. In turn, it's about the community and meeting their desires.
To me, if someone wants a new cover, a new layout, a new elf variant class, or an even smaller digest version of the book--go for it.
But I'm not in any place to make decisions like this. I'm not a part of BHP. I'm not a part of BBP. I'm not even really a part of Mythmere Games. I just volunteered to do the layout for WB after Coleston discovered his computer couldn't handle it, and got sucked into more projects as time went on.
A handful of people casually said they liked Mullen's artwork, and wouldn't mind having the ability to get it as the cover for the 2nd printing. I suggested that I could talk to Coleston, Mythmere, or Fin about that possibility. It's up to them. No decisions were made in this thread to do anything. What transpired in emails, I haven't the foggiest.
If Allen were to walk away if Mullen's cover gets presented as an alternate, I wouldn't even send a sample to Coleston. I wouldn't do it. 5-10 people getting an alternate cover vs. losing someone who's very important to getting WB into the hands of a wider audience? Not going to happen.
But for me, personally, I can't imagine getting that angry now. I can't comprehend that you, chgowiz, would tell me to f**k off, were I to present the old edition's cover for ~6 weeks to cater to the desires of some people within the OSR who happen to enjoy Mullen's work and maybe want complementary copies to go with other S&W products or their 1st print edition.
That's probably why it's best that I'm not making these decisions. I'm sure my girlfriend, if she had an account here, would go on at length about my inability to see certain social faux pas.
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Post by chgowiz on Jan 21, 2010 11:24:42 GMT -6
Verhaden, I think this is the point I will respectfully agree to disagree with you, because I think further slicing/dicing this is just going to end up in hard feelings and that's disrespectful to fin and the board.
In the end, we do what we think is right and we live with the results. I've stubbed my toe enough to learn that lesson, and it's one that the all of us here will learn at some point. I have no hard feelings to you personally, or to John or to anyone who participated here.
Kindest regards.
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Post by verhaden on Jan 21, 2010 11:50:37 GMT -6
Agreed. Since it might do more harm than good, I'd support not offering up an alternate cover.
--
Edit Re. Fin:
Well said.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 21, 2010 11:53:12 GMT -6
Some interesting points have been raised, and I suspect the answers aren't going to be clear because no contracts (that I'm aware of) have been signed for any of this. When I agreed to write the WB rules set for Mythmere Games, there was no contract and no payment in cash or complementary copies. I did my part and MG took over to get the lulu printing done. When Verhaden agreed to do layout, clearly there was no contract there, either. I know that each of us has invested significant hours into a project because of the love of the vision of the project, and that certainly we weren't motivated by the allmighty dollar. When I commissioned artwork for the MG version of the WB, I paid Pete Mullen and he sent me artwork. We never discussed if this was a one-time thing, or if it could be used as many times as I (or MG) wanted to use it. So I don't really know if it's mine or Pete's or both. While it's easy to say "let's just print another version with Pete's cover" I don't know if that's a legit thing to do or not. When Brave Halfling got the rights to publish the WB John may or may not have gotten anything in writing, I don't know. I do know that John and I set a "gentleman's agreement" for some compensation, but we didn't hammer out contracts. My point is that we're doing much of this in the dark and don't really have any real idea what we can or can't do, what we should or shouldn't do. We're all working on faith -- the faith that friends we've met online will all "play fair and square" and treat this project the way we all want it to be treated. I know that when MG or BHP have wanted to do anything with the WB they have asked me for permission first, but honestly I have no idea whether they need to do that or if it's just them being nice. So, we should be careful what we suggest or how quickly we take offense at suggestions made by others. We all share a common love for gaming (and a certain style of gaming) and none of us quite knows what to do with the genie once we've opened the bottle. Just my two coppers.
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 21, 2010 12:48:54 GMT -6
Some of us have preferences. I don't believe that anyone was saying that the current cover was bad, but that some of us prefer the Pete Mullen cover. To me the Mullen cover has more of a 70's feel. That is really very mellow, and no illustrator or artist can ever be so sensitive as to not be able to handle that. How does Pete feel about his cover being replaced for the boxed set?
If the Pete Mullen cover is not offered because of this I feel that BHP will be losing money over nothing. No illustrators "are affected" by this. My S&W books will have Pete Mullen covers because I feel that his art captures the vibe very well.
Any illustrator worth his salt can deal with this, or really, head for the shallow end of the pool, because there are sharks in the deep end that go for blood. To be honest, most "oldschool art" would be relegated to the Sketchbook area of a place like ConceptArt and would need a lot of work to find its way to the Finally Finished section. Harsh? Probably. Realistic? Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 13:33:11 GMT -6
I don't have a dog in this fight. All I wish to say is how pleased I am that everyone involved has calmly and rationally stated their positions, their disagreements, and their counter-arguments. I'll not name names, but this level of maturity is not quite so evident in other FRPG forums scattered around the web. This is why I've made this spot my primary source of information on the original edition of the best RPG in existence. Applause.
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 21, 2010 14:27:24 GMT -6
Well, to me, there isn't a lot of room to debate and nobody is saying anyone's work is deplorable, it isn't . I like Mark's cover, don't get me wrong, it just doesn't say S&W White Box to me the way Pete's cover does.
I had a tough time writing my post above because I am a person who says what they feel, I do this everyday online or off, and I know that my viewpoints don't always make people happy, however, just as I say or write something, I am willing to hear other people's points of view as well. Are all of my posts awesome on my blog? No, they aren't. But I take the comments and work with them and try to provide the best game components that I can.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 15:35:50 GMT -6
Well, to me, there isn't a lot of room to debate and nobody is saying anyone's work is deplorable, it isn't . Just to be crystal clear, I didn't say that either. Nor did I intend to imply it. As always, what the reader infers it not within my sphere of control. I had a tough time writing my post above because I am a person who says what they feel, I do this everyday online or off, and I know that my viewpoints don't always make people happy ... Again, to be very clear, I am not offended. In fact, the excellent way everyone was posting in this thread pleased me to no end. Of course you are welcome to express yourself; this really isn't the issue I was attempting to discuss. Thus, I feel the need to clarify to you no offense was taken at your post, nor was any offense taken at any other person's post. In fact, this is exactly the idea I am trying to communicate, apparently ineffectively, with my first post to this thread. I believe you will find most persons here will tell you very directly if you are being offensive, and I know without a doubt I will do so. Thus, I don't wish to leave the impression with you or anyone else that my post was someone meant as a left-handed compliment. Nonetheless, in the spirit of this thread let me freely offer the following: if my post offended you then please accept my most gracious and sincere apologies.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 21, 2010 15:56:31 GMT -6
See ... we all play nice here! :-) (unlike one of the other forums I moderate)
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Post by geordie on Jan 21, 2010 16:29:34 GMT -6
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bat
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Post by bat on Jan 21, 2010 16:46:03 GMT -6
I was agreeing with you, dubeers. Sorry, I was trying to bolster your post.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 17:18:44 GMT -6
I was agreeing with you, dubeers. Sorry, I was trying to bolster your post. Yikes! So much for my reading comprehension! (chuckle)
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