Reference Book for Players

[Falconer]

I have a practical question about running 1974 OD&D. What book or books do the players use in your games? I presume that MEN & MAGIC is the only book they would need of the three original booklets. And what about GREYHAWK? Lots of referee-only material there, but also lots of good info for players. Other Supplements? THE STRATEGIC REVIEW? CHAINMAIL?

Do your players have the actual books? Photocopies? Printouts?

Or do you use a homemade house rules document?

Or do the players have the Holmes BASIC GAME BOOK but the referee warns them it's not 100% correct, and uses OD&D as the "actual" rules? Maybe uses a house rules document as a supplement including all the rules they need that aren't in Holmes?

My potential strategy right now would be for the players to all have MEN & MAGIC as well as a house rules document that adds in desirable rules and info and spells from GREYHAWK and ELDRITCH WIZARDRY, as well as world flavor and general clarification and house rulings.

The problem is that it would be impossible to get a hold of hard copies of MEN & MAGIC for each player. Especially copies with "Hobbits," which holds particular appeal for me. I suppose all that's left is to create as appealing of forgeries as possible--and buying the PDF to keep it all legal.

But I'm interested in hearing what your solutions have been. Regards.

[philotomy]

Actually, my players don't have copies of the rules. I have some reference sheets for their use, at the table, but that's about it.

[danproctor]

Since the OD&D PDFs are legally available, it seems like an easy solution for each player to buy the PDF and print it out.

As an aside, I have not looked tooooo closely at the OD&D books. Skimmed them, yes. But in depth reading, no.

What, exactly, is needed from chainmail for the three books to run, if anything?

[Falconer]

Did you type up spell lists and explanations for the Cleric? A price list (or even inventory list without prices, to be determined by haggling) for the local merchant is passed around when appropriate?

[jrients]

To me Falconer's question strikes to the heart of a serious issue about D&D play.

If you desire the players to succeed by manipulating the rules to their advantage, then they will need access to all the rules of the game. This is the standard approach of the most recent edition, where players are expected to look up a magic item in the DMG if they want their character to purchase or create one. Or to look in the Monster Manual for the best animal for their druid to chapechange into.

But if you desire the players to succeed by judiciously and imaginatively interacting with your game world, then they will need little or no access to the rules. A brief house rules document, Men & Magic, and/or Holmes should be quite sufficient. Not giving them any rules whatsoever should work just fine. The physics engine of the world happens almost entirely behind the screen, so to speak.

[Falconer]

danproctor said:

What, exactly, is needed from chainmail for the three books to run, if anything?

My answer would be that OD&D has plenty of gaps that need filling in. It takes a lot of imagination and innovation--part of that is fixing House Rules and part of it is On The Fly Rulings. OD&D does assume possession of Chainmail, and so refers to it often ("as in Chainmail"..."see Chainmail"). Studying Chainmail can give you some pointers on how to fill in some of those gaps. But do you need any actual rules or tables in order to play OD&D "correctly"? I don't think so (but I may be "doing it wrong"!). Regards.

[Falconer]

jrients said:

If you desire the players to succeed by manipulating the rules to their advantage, then they will need access to all the rules of the game. This is the standard approach of the most recent edition, where players are expected to look up a magic item in the DMG if they want their character to purchase or create one. Or to look in the Monster Manual for the best animal for their druid to chapechange into.

Good point. The whole "Game Mastery" concept is how the game loses its magic and mystery, and incidentally makes it unappealing to non-geeks, including women.

In my last (OAD&D) campaign, I *never* allowed players to peek in the DMG, but I did allow players to look in the MM before and after games, if they were inclined to study it, but never during a session. I figured to some degree their characters could study it. Well, I think even that was a mistake. Gronan made a very poignant post over on the PPP boards about how OD&D is all about "What WAS that THING? Run away!" So, while I did take certain delight in my players learning the Lore of First Edition, I think it's even better if they don't know anything, and what they think they know might be wrong!

But if you desire the players to succeed by judiciously and imaginatively interacting with your game world, then they will need little or no access to the rules. A brief house rules document, Men & Magic, and/or Holmes should be quite sufficient. Not giving them any rules whatsoever should work just fine. The physics engine of the world happens almost entirely behind the screen, so to speak.

Yeah. I agree with all you said. Just, in addition to all the things that make OD&D great in and of itself, I also like the Coolness Factor of Actually Using The Original Little Brown Booklets, O My God, No Way!

d**n you, WotC, can't you at least print an anniversary run of the OCE set?

[coffee]

falconer said:

d**n you, WotC, can't you at least print an anniversary run of the OCE set?

Of course not!

That would tend to ruin sales for the upcoming 4th edition, because people would see that you don't need 47 hardcover rulebooks to run a great game!

[coffee]

I gotta say, I like the idea of the players having no rules of their own. I don't even think they need to have full descriptions of the spells. This isn't my original idea; I yoinked it from the Castles & Crusades list on another forum (not sure which one...)

The C&C OCE didn't have spell descriptions, other than one short line giving the bare bones. Someone suggested letting the players tell you (the ref) what they thought the spell would do. You could then adjudicate whether that sounded right to you or not and go from there.

This both actively involves the players' imaginations and simultaneously cuts down on them slapping you about the head and shoulders with rulebooks that you never know quite as well as they do. (After all, while you're preparing the adventure, they're re-reading the rules, looking for loopholes...)

(Can you tell I've been abused by ruleplayers for many, many years now? But I'm not bitter, oh, no, not me...)

[Finarvyn]

jrients said:

To me Falconer's question strikes to the heart of a serious issue about D&D play.

If you desire the players to succeed by manipulating the rules to their advantage, then they will need access to all the rules of the game. This is the standard approach of the most recent edition, where players are expected to look up a magic item in the DMG if they want their character to purchase or create one. Or to look in the Monster Manual for the best animal for their druid to chapechange into.

But if you desire the players to succeed by judiciously and imaginatively interacting with your game world, then they will need little or no access to the rules. A brief house rules document, Men & Magic, and/or Holmes should be quite sufficient. Not giving them any rules whatsoever should work just fine. The physics engine of the world happens almost entirely behind the screen, so to speak.

I gave you an EXALT for your wisdom. You've hit the problem exactly!

I prefer for my players not to have the rules, and my current group prefers not to have the rules. It works out great that way. I don't mind if players know the rules but I don't want to get into a huge debate over rules during play.

[crimhthanthegreat]

When I ref, I have the only rule books at the table, I have a price list on the table, without the prices (since they are not the same everyplace) and not all items are available in all towns. The players roll most of their own dice for most situations and I roll the dice for everything else that needs rolled. I tell the players the result of their rolls, since things are not always as they appear.