OD&D as a framework for a semi historical campaign

[thorswulf]

I just finished reading The White Company & Sir Nigel by Conan Doyle, and Ivanhoe by Sir Walter Scott. It has really got me in the mood to runa game set in the wastelands of the Baronial Wars of 12th century England or 14th Century France. Isolated castles, lone towers, dark forests, bands of banditti, and mercenaries. Hmmm sounds like D&D to me!

Has anybody ever used OD&D just to run a straight historical campaign where everyone plays a fighter or extremely limited cleric? Or what did you do instead?

[makofan]

A campaign like you described I generally run in Pendragon. I still prefer 1st edition, even though now they are on edition 5

[korgoth]

Interesting notion... but would it be detailed enough? If you go straight historical with no magic and miracles beyond the scope of player character powers, then you're in a situation where you have 1 character class, 3 armor types (leather, chain and plate) and 1 die for weapon damage (d6).

I certainly don't think feats and skills are necessary for character differentiation, but I do wonder if there might be so little detail at that point that the game would seem sparse? That's just speaking mechanically... of course any game rises and falls on the skill of the DM.

Just thinking aloud about it.

[Stonegiant]

thorswulf said:

I just finished reading The White Company & Sir Nigel by Conan Doyle, and Ivanhoe by Sir Walter Scott. It has really got me in the mood to runa game set in the wastelands of the Baronial Wars of 12th century England or 14th Century France. Isolated castles, lone towers, dark forests, bands of banditti, and mercenaries. Hmmm sounds like D&D to me!

Has anybody ever used OD&D just to run a straight historical campaign where everyone plays a fighter or extremely limited cleric? Or what did you do instead?

To make that time period viable for OD&D, I would add the myths of the time period as well thus giving the game a slightly more OD&D feel.

[Finarvyn]

makofan said:

A campaign like you described I generally run in Pendragon.

I have Pendragon and it's a great game, if you like a skill-based RPG. I happen to enjoy classes so I'd just OD&D it.

The neat thing here is that we're talking about setting tweaks more than mechanical revision. All you have to do is to edit the equipment lists to include period armor and weapons, along with whatever genral supplies a person might want to buy. OD&D works quite well for most historical settings.

The real challenge is magic. If I'm playing a "real world historical" game, then I have to decide if I'm allowing magic at all. My personal preference is to allow magic, even in a "historical" setting. What I tend to do is force spellcasting classes to earn as many levels in another class as they do in their spellcasting one. This will limit the amount of magic and make the world more "realistic". (D&D without magic just lacks something....)

For example, a player wants to be a cleric. Let them play a cleric-fighter with the odd numbered levels being fighter and the even numbered ones being cleric. So at 1st level he's a fighter, 2nd level a 1/1 fighter-cleric, 3rd level a 2/1, and finally by 4th level becomes a 2/2 and can actually cast a spell....

A fighter-magic user would get to cast slightly earlier, at 1/1.

Again, this brings the level of magic down to where it's not so fantastic and fits well in a historical setting a little better.

Just my two coppers.....

[coffee]

Fin, that's beautiful! As neat a solution to the overpowered magic problem as I've ever heard.

I totally agree; D&D without magic just isn't right...

[Stonegiant]

admin said:

makofan said:

A campaign like you described I generally run in Pendragon.

I have Pendragon and it's a great game, if you like a skill-based RPG. I happen to enjoy classes so I'd just OD&D it.

The neat thing here is that we're talking about setting tweaks more than mechanical revision. All you have to do is to edit the equipment lists to include period armor and weapons, along with whatever genral supplies a person might want to buy. OD&D works quite well for most historical settings.

The real challenge is magic. If I'm playing a "real world historical" game, then I have to decide if I'm allowing magic at all. My personal preference is to allow magic, even in a "historical" setting. What I tend to do is force spellcasting classes to earn as many levels in another class as they do in their spellcasting one. This will limit the amount of magic and make the world more "realistic". (D&D without magic just lacks something....)

For example, a player wants to be a cleric. Let them play a cleric-fighter with the odd numbered levels being fighter and the even numbered ones being cleric. So at 1st level he's a fighter, 2nd level a 1/1 fighter-cleric, 3rd level a 2/1, and finally by 4th level becomes a 2/2 and can actually cast a spell....

A fighter-magic user would get to cast slightly earlier, at 1/1.

Again, this brings the level of magic down to where it's not so fantastic and fits well in a historical setting a little better.

Just my two coppers.....

This sort of goes along with my pirate world idea where every class had to be a something and a thief (e.g. Fighter/Thief, M-U/Thief, etc.).

[Finarvyn]

Well, it's a simple solution and works pretty well.

The only thing is that I've found that it only works well if everyone has to divide classes. For example, Stonegiant if you are running your pirate campaign and someone wants to be a pure thief it may unbalance characters that are half thief half something else. (At least, that's what happened in the campaign I ran.)

[thorswulf]

Well I agree that the magic is an important element to D&D. I like the multi-class idea. The only problem I forsee with that is the issue of being second level as a cleric before you can turn undead! Of course in a semi historical game walking dead are not too much of a problem.

Actually my secondary influence has been from an adult fantasy comic series called Artesia. If you want to read some great adult fantasy I have yet to see better. And the creator was/is(?) a gamer! In a nutshell you have a world about the war of the roses as far as warfare goes, but with a heavy dose of magic as well. Be warned the erotic content is explicit, and the theology is very convoluted! But great stuff regardless!

I think your solution wold work in a world like this.

[kesher]

T., this kind of setting really appeals to me as well. I agree Fin's idea would be an elegant solution, if you decide you want magic, clerical or otherwise.

That does, however, lead me to another question, especially if it's going to take that much longer to progress upwards in level: In good ol' ODD, right, you get xp for killing things and taking their stuff. Would you go the same route, or would you incorporate some other ways to gain xp? Of your influences, I've only read part of Ivanhoe, and that was many years ago. What do they suggest?

Oh yeah, also, what about some sort of dwarf? Again, I can't remember in Ivanhoe (dangit, now I'm gonna have to dig up my copy...), but don't a lot of those stories have dwarves in them, usually as companions or teachers?

(maybe I'm thinking of Mallory...)

[Falconer]

My wife and I recently watched the TV series Rome. Throughout it all we thought of the characters Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo as the “PCs,” their tales weaving in and out with those of the famous historical figures, and their combat prowess becoming increasingly fantastic. You can just hear Pullo’s player excitedly jabbering at the DM: “Cleopatra?? I want to do her!”

I have become intrigued with the idea of doing a campaign set in roughly the same time and places. I guess I will check out TSR’s HR5 The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook to see what it has to offer. Regards.

[Gynsburghe]

I'm working on a similar campaign concept, drawing off historical models. I'm laying on the mythological aspects of cultures just as hard, especially when it comes to concepts of otherworlds. I am leaning towards borrowing the skills system from the R.C. to facilitate a bit more cultural focus, with additional skills being brought in. It feels closer to right than a number of more modern interpretations, it's not rule heavy, and I like it.

I couldn't believe how many of the questions I thought before coming here were answered, or at least being explored!

Gynsburghe

[thorswulf]

Regarding Dwarves, yeah that's Le Morte d'Artur. My own bent towards things like this is really more of a dark ages campaign. medieval europe is all well and good, but the Vikings and Frankish Kingdoms are more my idea of what I want to do.

The dark ages allows for Elves, Dwarves, and the like. Granted there may not be dungeons dotting the landscape but there certainly was plenty of wasteland and dark forested areas to spare. Magic works well too, and clerical magic of the pagan peoples certainly is a bit more colorful. This brings up a slight problem: Christianity as a faith and spell casting. If you take the line of thinking that the clerics are like the early Celtic priests who were sainted for their miracles-like battling the Loch Ness Monster (St. Columba), or standing up against the pagan gods and their worshippers (St. Olaf)-then this is not a problem either. Either way it makes for a nice clerical class!

I really battled with the gold standard in D&D in the dark ages. I finally gve up and decided a larger silver coin called the Mark or Sovereign would be used. This way starting characters can have a suit of chainmail and not go broke doing so! Besides it makes sense that a huscarl or milites would have good armor and weapons. An aspect of combat that gets overlooked is how popular wrestling matches were. I think a higher strength character should have some bonus to grappling attacks.

Well just some musings. Honestly I have a ton of painted vikings, Saxons, and Normans that just need to be used for playing D&D. That and there are some really cool Dark ages figs made by Vendel miniatures!

I'm totally lead poisoned!

[Falconer]

throswulf—

Have you read The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson?

[thorswulf]

Yes, and Hrolf Kraki's Saga, The Demon of Scattery, War of the Gods, and a Hauk shortstory or two. Another influence is Nancy Verian Berberick's Panther's Hoard, and Howards Cormac Mac Art stories. As for period literature, I have read King Harald's Saga, smatterings of other sagas, and the Prose Edda. Oh yeah and Eaters of the Dead by Mike Crichton.

Actually one of the things I find funny is the crew listed for a longship in OD&D. 75 men might fit in a big drakkar, but 20 is probably more likely!

Skol!

[Stonegiant]

thorswulf said:

Regarding Dwarves, yeah that's Le Morte d'Artur. My own bent towards things like this is really more of a dark ages campaign. medieval europe is all well and good, but the Vikings and Frankish Kingdoms are more my idea of what I want to do.

The dark ages allows for Elves, Dwarves, and the like. Granted there may not be dungeons dotting the landscape but there certainly was plenty of wasteland and dark forested areas to spare. Magic works well too, and clerical magic of the pagan peoples certainly is a bit more colorful. This brings up a slight problem: Christianity as a faith and spell casting. If you take the line of thinking that the clerics are like the early Celtic priests who were sainted for their miracles-like battling the Loch Ness Monster (St. Columba), or standing up against the pagan gods and their worshippers (St. Olaf)-then this is not a problem either. Either way it makes for a nice clerical class!

I really battled with the gold standard in D&D in the dark ages. I finally gve up and decided a larger silver coin called the Mark or Sovereign would be used. This way starting characters can have a suit of chainmail and not go broke doing so! Besides it makes sense that a huscarl or milites would have good armor and weapons. An aspect of combat that gets overlooked is how popular wrestling matches were. I think a higher strength character should have some bonus to grappling attacks.

Well just some musings. Honestly I have a ton of painted vikings, Saxons, and Normans that just need to be used for playing D&D. That and there are some really cool Dark ages figs made by Vendel miniatures!

I'm totally lead poisoned!

Hey there Thorswulf!

An idea for the playing of Christian clergy in this type of campaign might be to borrow an idea from the Stormbringer RPG. In the Stormbringer characters can earn Elan points that can be used for calling on Divine Intervention. Maybe the Christian Clergy could use something similar, maybe call it Grace points or Piety Points, etc. with these points you could then work out some sort Divine Intervention system scaled from the almost trivial to the truly awe inspiring, this would make, in many peoples opinions, the Christian Clergy very powerful but as a counter-balance is the fact that they don't have any control of what form the assistance will be in or when it will arrive, those are all left up to the Big Guy's prerogative

[Deleted]

Ooooooo. Divine intervention rules! That sounds like it would be alot of fun to play!

[casey777]

stonegiant said:

Maybe the Christian Clergy could use something similar, maybe call it Grace points or Piety Points, etc. with these points you could then work out some sort Divine Intervention system scaled from the almost trivial to the truly awe inspiring

Stormbringer has some good bits in all editions IMO, but I'm biased.

Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT), based on OD&D, has a basic Divine Intervention system that might also be helpful. The DDG has about a column with some more modifiers that could supplement EPT. Biggest hurdle is EPT is based around sacrifices and the like, which would have to be tweaked for Christian Clergy.

[Stonegiant]

casey777 said:

stonegiant said:

Maybe the Christian Clergy could use something similar, maybe call it Grace points or Piety Points, etc. with these points you could then work out some sort Divine Intervention system scaled from the almost trivial to the truly awe inspiring

Stormbringer has some good bits in all editions IMO, but I'm biased.

Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT), based on OD&D, has a basic Divine Intervention system that might also be helpful. The DDG has about a column with some more modifiers that could supplement EPT. Biggest hurdle is EPT is based around sacrifices and the like, which would have to be tweaked for Christian Clergy.

Instead of sacrifices one could construct a list of Christian behavior and vows that could replace that list (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, preaching the gospel, burying the dead, etc. or things like taking a vow of poverty, silence, or chastity/celibacy [this was not required by the Roman church until after the 12th century and the Eastern Church still allows its priesthood to marry to this day])

[Wothbora]

stonegiant said:

Instead of sacrifices one could construct a list of Christian behavior and vows that could replace that list (feeding the poor, clothing the naked, preaching the gospel, burying the dead, etc. or things like taking a vow of poverty, silence, or chastity/celibacy [this was not required by the Roman church until after the 12th century and the Eastern Church still allows its priesthood to marry to this day])

I can think of some mighty powerful Penance(s) that one would have to perform when doing something really naughty... That's sure add some interesting spins (or quests) for those Clerics who do something "bad." Come to think about it, Indulgences might fit into a campaign nicely as well (you play then you pay)...

[thorswulf]

I have a copy of Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Quarrie, and while a lot of the game system fails to hit the mark the magic and religion stuff is a lot like what Stormbringer, and EPT have to offer.

Of course keeping one's head as a priest in the dark ages was a bit more difficult than the middle ages! All those pagans you know.... Seriously though, a Christian cleric in my pseudo-dark ages world be a bit more like some of the more militant clergy of the era. Biship Odo, Saint Cuthebert (not Gygax's, the real one) and some of the more militant clerics as role models might just hale from the newly Christianized kingdom of the Franks. Less physical oriented ones may be from Innisfail (Ireland) or one of the Christian kingdoms of Britain or Wales.

I think that rules for conversion might be appropriate, but only if a campaign takes this bent. My own inclination is to play priests of the Aes and Vanir, myself. More fun that way! Plus you get to intone that cool Norse mantra from the 13th Warrior!

[Stonegiant]

thorswulf said:

I have a copy of Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Quarrie, and while a lot of the game system fails to hit the mark the magic and religion stuff is a lot like what Stormbringer, and EPT have to offer.

Of course keeping one's head as a priest in the dark ages was a bit more difficult than the middle ages! All those pagans you know.... Seriously though, a Christian cleric in my pseudo-dark ages world be a bit more like some of the more militant clergy of the era. Biship Odo, Saint Cuthebert (not Gygax's, the real one) and some of the more militant clerics as role models might just hale from the newly Christianized kingdom of the Franks. Less physical oriented ones may be from Innisfail (Ireland) or one of the Christian kingdoms of Britain or Wales.

I think that rules for conversion might be appropriate, but only if a campaign takes this bent. My own inclination is to play priests of the Aes and Vanir, myself. More fun that way! Plus you get to intone that cool Norse mantra from the 13th Warrior!

Fantasy Wargaming is a great resource ;D. Especially if trying to run a semi-historical campaign, regardless of the game system being used. IMO the best way to portray the Christian church of the dark ages in an RPG would be a combination of Fantasy Wargaming, Pendragon (especially the passion system), and the Divine Intervention rules of BRP systems like RQ2, Stormbringer, etc.