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Post by thegreyelf on May 7, 2009 9:32:15 GMT -6
I've never had a chance to look at this (the few times I tried to get copies they've slipped through my fingers), and was wondering. Is this a campaign setting for OD&D, or is it an entirely original game? If the latter, how close is it mechanically to OD&D (I know, that's an odd question given how lite the mechanics are in OD&D, but still...).
Any info you can give on the nuts and bolts, and down and dirty of this is appreciated.
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Post by greentongue on May 7, 2009 11:23:21 GMT -6
EPT is NOT a campaign setting for OD&D. (Though there is some debate about that.) It IS an entirely original game. There are some that feel it is the second campaign for OD&D after "The First Fantasy Campaign". The mechanics are familiar but not identical and the setting is far more Sci-Fi steeped than Blackmoor's crashed UFO. It is an entire ALIEN world in the extreme future with "magic" and Super Tech. It is considered an aquired taste and has transformed from the original form of EPT to a almost completely different style of game in the later rule releases. See this thread for a florid description: odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ept&action=display&thread=1546= |
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Post by Zulgyan on May 7, 2009 11:44:33 GMT -6
But still, about 60% or more of the rules could be easily used in OD&D. The similarities of the system are many, many.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 13:10:23 GMT -6
EPT is based on OD&D, this is why many of the mechanics are so similar and is also why TSR published the first edition of the game. It was to save an enormous legal hassle between Barker and TSR.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on May 7, 2009 13:48:12 GMT -6
At some point, it might be interesting for someone to sit down and go through EPT, listing all of the rules differences from OD&D. In some ways, of course, EPT reads like a heavily house-ruled OD&D, with percentile stats and a combat system that cross-references level, yet which still has the three familiar classes and so on.
I'll try and get the time to post something more specific later.
Funnily enough, if you published it today, it woudl be a very cool semi-clone, along the lines of Spellcraft & Swordplay.
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Post by aldarron on May 7, 2009 13:57:57 GMT -6
Like most, I've been aware of EPT for years but somehow only recently began to explore the history and details of the game. This link gives a detailed overview. robertdushay.home.mindspring.com/Tekumel/EPTreview.htmlI think one of the key things to putting EPT in context vis a vis OD&D is that Barker was one of Arnesons players and EPT was written and published before Greyhawk, so he is presumably coming at the game from a different, less Gygaxian perspective. |
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bert on May 7, 2009 16:57:25 GMT -6
I think one of the key things to putting EPT in context vis a vis OD&D is that Barker was one of Arnesons players and EPT was written and published before Greyhawk, so he is presumably coming at the game from a different, less Gygaxian perspective. I think that's understating it a bit - Barker was/is a Professor of Linguistics (He hasn't been well of late, but I think he may well still be on the faculty) who invented his own language and then developed a culture to fit that language, just like Tolkein, though a couple of decades later and more influenced by the pulp SciFi he imbibed as a child at the Saturday morning movie matinees. I have seen Barker quoted as saying he dreamed up the world of Tekumel not long after doing field work as a graduate student studying Sanskrit languages in India in the 40's - the sheer culture shock of being flung into a teeming city dominated by the Hindu caste system and and the Byzantine bureaucracy left by the late British Raj are clearly seen in the way Tsolyanu works. The set up of dumping hapless players into Jakalla as clanless barbarians several tsan out of their depth mirrors his own experience. The advent of D&D inspired him to revive Tekumel from being something he toyed with writing some genre novels about to a game setting for more collaborative storytelling, though at first he made the world fit the rules as they then existed - even to the point of inventing an excuse for the existence of megadungeons in the form of ditlana and the resulting tsuru'um - rather than design new game rules from scratch to reflect his fantasy world, which at this very early stage of RPG history no one had thought of doing. Should Tekumel have been an OD&D supplement rather than a separate game? Possibly, but you can't rewrite history, and one of the most devastatingly original campaign settings ever devised has languished while the bland 'generic fantasy' settings that came out of Greyhawk have prospered (curse you Forgotten Realms and the misbegotten Coastal Wizards that spawned you!) IMO due to this peculiar publishing history. If all the wee kiddies in the 70's had had a $5 D&D supplement to buy, not a whopper of a $20+ game (or whatever the price was - steep for those days) Tekumel would be far better known today. |
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Post by harami2000 on May 7, 2009 18:17:07 GMT -6
I have seen Barker quoted as saying he dreamed up the world of Tekumel not long after doing field work as a graduate student studying Sanskrit languages in India in the 40's - the sheer culture shock of being flung into a teeming city dominated by the Hindu caste system and and the Byzantine bureaucracy left by the late British Raj are clearly seen in the way Tsolyanu works. The set up of dumping hapless players into Jakalla as clanless barbarians several tsan out of their depth mirrors his own experience. That particular starting "scenario" isn't implicit in any of the late 40s mss. I've seen (only a small subsample even for that date, no doubt) which are purely world- and language-building exercises but the feeling of culture shock along such lines is underlying and not far below the surface. Should Tekumel have been an OD&D supplement rather than a separate game? Good point and the vote would be a definite "yes" here, but of course there was no specific precedent in RPGs (whatever that meant at the time  ) for a supplement, far less a campaign setting (how many relatively generic wargames existed at that time with separate sales of such an equivalent?). At least it wasn't killed at birth. Just somewhat later on... If all the wee kiddies in the 70's had had a $5 D&D supplement to buy, not a whopper of a $20+ game (or whatever the price was - steep for those days) Tekumel would be far better known today. A surprisingly large number of people forked out their $25 or even more in UK equivalent. As a separate system (sold thus) it was very easy to become stranded high-and-dry despite the initial push for sales. One could no doubt query what the long-term strategy for D&D was at that time, trying to reconcile that EPT "adventure" with the stated "50k sales" aim on D&D sales in a cash-poor company. |
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Post by aldarron on May 7, 2009 18:51:55 GMT -6
... but you can't rewrite history, and one of the most devastatingly original campaign settings ever devised has languished while the bland 'generic fantasy' settings that came out of Greyhawk have prospered (curse you Forgotten Realms and the misbegotten Coastal Wizards that spawned you!) IMO due to this peculiar publishing history. If all the wee kiddies in the 70's had had a $5 D&D supplement to buy, not a whopper of a $20+ game (or whatever the price was - steep for those days) Tekumel would be far better known today. It might be interesting to start a thread about the context of EPT and Greyhawk, Gygax and Arneson etc. Judging from a couple posts by badger I get the sense that there was no love lost between Barker and Gygax. In any case once EGG has his Greyhawk and his visions of Ad&d, I suspect he and TSR weren't very interested in promoting Tekumel, because it was in many ways a rival product and came from someone outside the company. In any case I'm sure more could have been done to promote the game during the D&D explosion in the late seventies if TSR had wanted too. |
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Post by Achán hiNidráne on May 7, 2009 22:24:22 GMT -6
It is considered an aquired taste and has transformed from the original form of EPT to a almost completely different style of game in the later rule releases. I prefer the term "evolved" myself. To be honest, I rather like the expansion and additional detail of the Tekumel setting found in the later games. However, I just can't stand the later rules! Swords & Glory and Tekumel: Empire Of The Petal Throne suffered from clunky, crunchy, complex rules. Gardisyal was a little better, but the rules had more holes than a golf course. You don't need complex rules to play a rich and detailed setting, just imaginative players and GMs. While the original rules no longer seem to match the current view of how magic works on Tekumel and you're expected to play a "barbarian" rather than a Tsolyani, EPT is still the best set of "official" rules yet. It just needs some house rules here and there. |
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bert on May 9, 2009 11:07:38 GMT -6
It just needs some house rules here and there. I'd go along with that, having written up a whole bunch of such rules on this forum and with another batch appearing in the next Fight On! The bit that bugs me most with OEPT is the magic system - how would you re-jig it so that it is more like the Gardasiyal system which has lots of character for the individual religions and more flexibility in 'generic' spells? |
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bert on May 9, 2009 11:29:18 GMT -6
Any info you can give on the nuts and bolts, and down and dirty of this is appreciated. Any way we kinda wandered off Greyelf's original query so... Stats All rolled on d100, Psychic Ability replaces Wisdom and Comeliness replaces Charisma. Strength, Constitution, Dexterity AND Intelligence all give to hit and damage modifiers, Psy Ab defines the maximum spell level you can use and your success rate with magic. Comeliness does nothing much in rules terms, but GMs use it as a charisma substitute at appropriate places. Low dex that if you miss in combat you can fumble and hit your own side, low con gives chance of healing spell failure. Characters Warrior, Priest and Sorcerer as basic classes no non-humans allowed as PCs, at least no rules given for them. Combat As OD&D 'aletrnate' system for hit rolls, made on d20, 1d6 damage for all weapons with the odd tweak here and there for 2-handed weapons and daggers. Higher level PCs do not get more attacks they do more dice damage depending on how weedy the opposition is. A high level Warrior will mince dozens of plebby spearcarriers in one go. Hit points Same as AD&D more or less Skills OEPT has them, whereas OD&D hasn't. Each level you get an extra 'professional' skill depending on class. Warriors get more weapons, for what it is worth, culminating in skills in siege engines and military strategy, Priests and Sorcerers get a mix of basic magical abilities and scholarly skills. In additon there are three grades of 'civilian' skills, some useless and some very/too useful (eg Physican, Assassin) Magic Automatically get one extra basic spell/ability per level, most of which have multiple uses per day. Random roll for extra 'bonus' spells which come in three levels and are extremely lethal. Spell casters do not get to shoot off spells automatically, but have a % roll to make to avoid failure, and the bonus spells are generally 'fire and forget' as in OD&D Monsters Lots of 'em almost all with a unique Tekumeli flavour, weird name and copiously equipped with special abilities and lethally poisonous attacks |
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Post by Achán hiNidráne on May 9, 2009 23:26:03 GMT -6
The bit that bugs me most with OEPT is the magic system - how would you re-jig it so that it is more like the Gardasiyal system which has lots of character for the individual religions and more flexibility in 'generic' spells? Ah! The 64,000 Kaitar question. I've been wanting to sit down and try to work out some ideas, but I haven't found the time. |
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Post by thegreyelf on May 10, 2009 14:20:31 GMT -6
Thanks for the info, folks!
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Post by klamath on May 19, 2009 10:13:24 GMT -6
On the shameless plug front, I wrote a review last year that's mainly about comparing E.P.T. to OD&D. You can find it at www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13856.phtml if you are interested. It's on the long side, though. From things I've read on the Yahoo Tekumel list, I gather that the original MS rules for E.P.T. were even closer to OD&D and that some of the changes between the systems were introduced at T.S.R.'s urging to distinguish one game from the other. |
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Post by greentongue on May 19, 2009 11:24:29 GMT -6
Kudos for spending the time and effort on such a detailed review.
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agcias
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by agcias on May 19, 2009 15:17:40 GMT -6
Woooo! Good (and complete) review. Have an exalt -- for 12 pages of review, you deserve it (I deserve a brownie point for reading the whole thing). I'll pass it on to friends who are EPT fans. I especially agree with your repeated references to the unbelievably complex and rich setting -- like something written by E R Burroughs tripping on Byzantine hash. You have to have a special DM to run EPT well but if you do, the vividness of the cultural interplay (and plotting) is worth it.
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) for a supplement, far less a campaign setting (how many relatively generic wargames existed at that time with separate sales of such an equivalent?).
