Reaction to party strength

[dwayanu]

A couple of salient points concerning my dungeoneering:

1) I don't cater to a "regular cast" of players / characters. One session, I may have but one player with a newly rolled PC; another, I may have half a dozen experienced fellows and their henchmen / hirelings.

2) I have a "meta-rationale" in which the dungeon is, from the "Panopticon Proprietor's" perspective, a sort of game. Suffice to say that there's demand for "high-level" souls.

For the most part, my encounters assume a party of 8 at the equivalent level of experience. Monster group strength on the first level typically ranges from 4 to 10 Hit Dice, with treasure usually roughly in proportion (more for "key" encounters, little or none for Wandering Monsters).

My notes include reactions to parties more or less powerful than that admittedly arbitrary "norm." Monsters are on one hand unlikely to pursue a "contemptible" intruder. On the other hand, there are contingency plans to present a stronger front (by falling back on or calling up reinforcements) in the case of an unusually strong attack.

Should someone assault the first level with what would normally be overwhelming force, a general monstrous mobilization would ensue.

There is not a universal "equalization." Some forces of Chaos (especially those lacking intelligence) are simply expendable or unrestrained.

[crimhthanthegreat]

dwayanu said:

Should someone assault the first level with what would normally be overwhelming force, a general monstrous mobilization would ensue.

There is not a universal "equalization." Some forces of Chaos (especially those lacking intelligence) are simply expendable or unrestrained.

I like this, a general monstrous mobilization, that sounds like a fun thing. I think I would enjoy taking a crack at your dungeon.

As to "expendable or unrestrained" ;D.

[Finarvyn]

I think my style is more of "stronger as we go deeper" instead of having monsters mobilize to oppose the party. I tend to start my characters at lower levels, and then I award experience so that they improve as the dungeon gets tougher.

[makofan]

My first level party is currently fighting a 7 HD spider - and winning (grrr...) They were supposed to run.

[dwayanu]

My aim is to allow ample opportunity for different party sizes without too much work on my part. A group of 6 to 10 of the appropriate level generally attracts no special attention. A party of three or four 1st-level characters (much less a reckless duo) faces quite a challenge against 4 HD -- but that might be a "cake walk" to a party of 16 HD.

Sure, the rewards are also pretty poor relative to moving on to a deeper level. What matters to me (and to the NPC "Dungeon Master") is that if a too-powerful force does go "on a spree" then I/he will have a lot of restocking to do to provide challenges for the adventurers the level is meant to challenge.

When an overwhelmed group of Goblins gets reinforced by neighboring Gnolls, the risk to reward ratio becomes that much less appealing. It's another inducement for players to move along to deeper levels.

[serendipity]

makofan said:

My first level party is currently fighting a 7 HD spider - and winning (grrr...) They were supposed to run.

Just so you know, I'd be willing to run in that situation. He who fights and runs away will live to run another day. (I'd attribute that to the author, but I have no idea who that might be.)

--Sere

[dwayanu]

We are pretty confident that flaming oil shall keep the spider at bay, and unlike it (or the priest accompanying it) we have missile weapons. Maybe the spider should run ...

Regarding my scheme, the "party of eight of the appropriate level" assumption is really applicable only to the first level (and some sections of deeper levels). Going deeper, there tends to be a greater proportion of less-experienced characters (as there are fewer available PCs of a given level). Hirelings won't venture past the third level, but "henchmen" (special NPCs subject to the Charisma limits on number employed) will.

[Finarvyn]

makofan said:

They were supposed to run.

But players don't do that much anymore. There seems to be this "if it's there we're supposed to be able to kill it" mentality in gaming, so players just don't run away.

[doc]

While playing in a high level Arduin campaign in the early 90's I developed a reputation as being the only player in the campaign to NEVER have lost a character. My characters were never the toughest, or fastest, or most magically potent. Nor did they carry around a lot of magical geegaws. No, I survived simply because I didn't do stupid things. My characters usually were of at least average intelligence and wisdom, and I played them that way.

As I was preparing to leave the campaign, I put together a list of hints and tricks for surviving dangerous situations. Things that I THOUGHT were simple common sense, but somehow others did not. Every rule had at least two or three precedences within the campaign of having led to character death (well, the ignoring of said rules leading to death, to be specific).

My Number One Rule, the one that ties right into the last post, was simply this:

"You don't HAVE to fight a creature simply because it is THERE!"

You would be surprised at the number of times the party has said something like "So what if it's a dragon. We're obviously supposed to fight it." Never mind that they are all fourth level. Never mind that they have no knowledge of what the dragon could do. Never mind that the dragon knows every inch of the terrain while the characters are stumbling about. Never mind that the adventure/mission objective has absolutely NOTHING to to with fighting a dragon (or demon, or hydra, or whatever powerful critter you want), the party just feels like they HAVE to do it because obviously the DM wouldn't toss it in if it wasn't important to the plot.

If player characters thought a lot more like actual people instead of disposable sheets of numbers there would be a lot less character death in gaming.

Doc

(Sorry, I know this post was kind of off topic, but I just had to get it off my chest.)

[dwayanu]

That giant spider is now a burning corpse. And my fighter was not among those who risked getting bitten (and probably poisoned); he threw the torch to light the oil. He's a mercenary, not a hero! A giant spider is unlikely to carry treasure, much less to be ransomable.

If the priest doesn't escape quickly, we may see whether a crossbow bolt in the back stops him. I figure his buddies are likely to be more dangerous if he gets to warn them we're coming.

[coffee]

doc said:

As I was preparing to leave the campaign, I put together a list of hints and tricks for surviving dangerous situations.

(Sorry, I know this post was kind of off topic, but I just had to get it off my chest.)

Maybe off-topic for this discussion, but I'd certainly like to see that list!

[doc]

I'll see if I can dig it up from out of one of my old computers and post it. Likely in the D&D Philosophy or General board.

Doc

[dwayanu]

How to Keep Lord Larcenous out of Your Dungeon:

Station three Trolls (of at least average HP) at the entrance, fighting in shifts while their fellows regenerate. That should keep any column of normal men from advancing, and morale should soon waver (regardless of ratio of casualties to unit size) due to the assault's being literally a "forlorn hope."

Per Vol. 2, I give 1 attack per HD vs. normal men (ignoring the business about a plus on one roll). I also rule (contra Vol. 1, but in line with Swords & Spells) that NM get -1 to hit. I also mostly use standard damage and hit dice (ie., 1d6) per the original three books (NM not getting a Fighter's +1 on HP). Finally, I allow no more than two ranks (with spears or the like) to attack and no more than three files in a standard dungeon corridor -- which can be narrowed if tighter files are allowed; I reckon 6'-8' "elbow room" enough for a single Troll.

One can easily think of reserves to have on hand for special cases. Ogres are good for drawing Sleep spells -- or wreaking havoc if no such charm is forthcoming; their strength should make short work of, e.g., a ballista. An MU to cast the spell for one's own side can also be handy (equip him with scrolls). Goblin archers with poisoned arrows and stakes and/or polearms to fend off cavalry can go out to skirmish. They can also serve as an "ambulance corps" bringing in bodies for reanimation as undead to freak out their former comrades in arms.* A "flying squad" / "fire brigade" of dragons is great for turning imminent breaches into routs of attackers.

Anyhow, it's not too tough to keep out pesky armies so that you can reserve admittance for the "adventurers" whose misadventures are so entertaining to a Dungeon Master!

*Level-draining undead immune to ordinary weapons are terrifying, and just the thing for taking out annoyingly exceptional leaders. They tend to be less manageable as minions, though; it may take more inducement than a command from the Master to get them into battle.

[Mordorandor]

I, like dwayanu, have intelligent monsters respond appropriately, by scouting, reinforcing, mobilizing, or retreating.

I plan a dynamic number of monsters per characters in the party, whether NPC or PC.

For group-like monsters, like humanoids, for example, I use this formula.

If the monster level is identical to dungeon level ...

1d3 monsters per 1-3 PCs + NPCs,
2d3 monsters per 4-6 PCs + NPCs, and so on.

-1 if the monster level is higher than the dungeon level ...

1d2 4th-level monsters on the 3rd dungeon level, for example
1 4th-level monster on the 2nd dungeon level
0 4th-level monsters on the 1st dungeon level

Double the monster number if the monster level is lower than the dungeon level ...

2d3 1st-level monsters on the 2nd dungeon level,
3d3 1st-level monsters on the 3rd dungeon level, and so on, using discretion to say when a certain monster level just won't be found at lower levels

So all keyed encounters are keyed with 1d3 monsters, and adjusted by how many PCs and NPCs show for the adventure/session.

If the monsters are quite fantastical or solitary, I substitute 1 for the 1d3 in the above mentioned numbers.

If nine characters encounter 3rd-level "group" monsters on the 5th dungeon level, the formula would be:

1d3 3rd-level monsters on 3rd dungeon level +
1d3 3rd-level monsters on 4th dungeon level +
1d3 3rd-level monsters on 5th dungeon level =

3d3 * 3 (for 7-9 characters)

9d3, or 9-27 monsters

If they encounter 3rd-level "solo" monsters on the 5th dungeon level, the formula would be:

1 3rd-level monsters on 3rd dungeon level +
1 3rd-level monsters on 4th dungeon level +
1 3rd-level monsters on 5th dungeon level =

3 * 3 (for 7-9 characters)

9 of the solo monsters. I might play with that number 1 or 2 either way to break up the monotony of identical numbers. 

Again, referee discretion on how far down into the dungeon these lower-level monsters will go.

[howandwhy99]

Monster Reaction to flee versus fight from a perceived enemy could be connected to many things, like a monster trait or individual characteristic even.

I agree monsters groups are going to react differently to different power levels of parties. But this also includes reactions to other monster groups. I think the question is more about what happens when anyone at all encounters a significantly weaker or stronger collection of foes.

The senses, knowledge, and Intelligence to recognize opponent strength. The Wisdom to act move to a better option or path. Even the Experience to know strategies to use for those options. Like using fire against trolls, or not to run from bears.