Further in, further down

[dwayanu]

Pardon, but this may be a bit disorderly -- I'm "brainstorming."

Because I like long passages in my dungeons, I've long been in the habit of first sketching a "big picture" at 240' per inch.

My latest idea is for a ruined city at that scale: about a mile on its long axis, if I use 8.5"x11" sheets for quadrants.

I'm thinking that "levels" traditionally marked vertically could depend instead on proximity to the center.

Feedback?

[Finarvyn]

dwayanu said:

I'm thinking that "levels" traditionally marked vertically could depend instead on proximity to the center.

I'm not sure I can picture what you are saying.

I tend to think about dungeons in terms of horizontal layers, which implies more of an x-y axis for each level with a z-axis as you go downward. "Proximity to the center" makes it sound more like a wagon-wheel shape -- something radial with a main hub and lots of passages shooting outwards. Am I on the right track?

[dwayanu]

Wherever one penetrates the outer wallls, that neighborhood is "first level." A bit further in (and perhaps across another ring of fortifications or a moat or whatever) is second level. And so on, until the center is 3rd or 4th level, Does that help?

I welcome any feedback I can get!

[philotomy]

I think this could work if you're careful with your map design. You'd have several "rings" working inward. There'd be lots of "paths" within a given ring, but only a few paths or "pinch points" leading from one "ring" to another. (And these "rings" are conceptual -- they needn't be complete or perfect rings.)

If you wanted to complicate it a bit, you could add another vertical level (upper or lower) that intertwines. The vertical level wouldn't necessarily equate to the difficulty/encounter level; it's just there to make the map more interesting and to give more interconnections and paths for the PCs to choose.

[badger2305]

Scott Rosenberg tried something similar to that in his D&D world back in the mid-70's. He wrote about it in his fanzine at the time, and mentioned that ruined cities were something of a challenge. Hmmm. Sounds like fun, though!

[coffee]

I think it sounds great! I only ask that you let us know how that works out.

This is not the first time I've heard of the 'proximity equates to level' concept. I've never tried it myself, but who knows? Maybe someday...

[makofan]

There was a Conan / Red Sonja story which was sort of like that

[dwayanu]

Thanks for the feedback (which seems overwhelmingly encouraging)!

The "pinch points" and vertical element are definitely features to include, given their utility in a "normal" dungeon.

Howard's "Red Nails" and some other Conan stories were an inspiration. I had gotten into a Lovecraftian theme with encounters that was really working for me, and the Serpent People brought to mind Kull as well as C.A. Smith's Hyperborea.

One tends to need larger "upper" levels (especially first), to acommodate the turnover in new characters. The ruined city fits that bill, and (a big advantage to me) readily suggests a wide variety of interesting (but not too difficult) situations.

I have on hand Jim Ward's "Deserted Cities of Mars" article and the Cities book from Midkemia Press. I'm thinking of making up some standard floorplans, enough to lend variety while easing the design process (which may sometimes be in-game improvisation).

Some architectural themes might enhance the city's alien aspect: ramps in place of stairs, repeated use of non-rectangular shapes (e.g., triangular or circular doorways, hexagonal or octagonal rooms), decorative motifs, and so on. Some places may still be lit with glowing "gems," and some other magical/weird-science devices may also be about to beguile and bewilder explorers.

[dwayanu]

I've decided that the city is not actually (or not wholly) in ruins.

I'm mapping on a hexgrid (60' across a hex from edge to edge). Building complexes match that grid. I plan to have special maps and keys for some, filling in the rest with hexagonal geomorphs and tables of features similar to the Monster and Treasure Assortments.

Passages beneath the city connect with an underworld to challenge more experienced adventurers.

I picture the city on an island in the middle of a lake surrounded by a ring of mountains -- a great crater. Between lake and mountains are plains and jungle inhabited by dinosaurian monsters. Caverns through the otherwise impassable mountains connect with the outside world.

Dinosaurs at first level?! Indeed, but canny players will evade them.

[Finarvyn]

dwayanu said:

I've decided that the city is not actually (or not wholly) in ruins.

As in Red Nails, having several factions of people or creatures inhabiting the structure can be neat. So some parts might be ruins/rubble, but other sections could be fully stocked and undergoing some sort of struggle against the others.

1. This allows for certain places to be "sanctuary" for PCs who need to stop to resupply or to rest.

2. But not all sanctuary places may be as nice as they seem. There could be some sub-plots wherein a friendly group actually wants to rob the party of goodies.

3. There could be places where huge combats are occuring and the PCs might get swept into a battle they didn't plan on fighting.

4. Some "dead" zones of ruins might be the haven for nightmarish monsters lurking in dark corners.

One thing that you might do is make a giant "player's map" and slowly fill in the details as the players explore the structure. They might find certain areas that they can't get into, which would drive them nuts searching. Also it might give a feeling of accomplishment as they gradually fill in the white spaces on the map. There could also be a global goal for them to accomplish, such as a rescue or a treasure to plunder, and then the group would have to work their way back out of the place.

Sounds like a lot of fun. I think that I'm going to re-read Red Nails again tonight!

[crimhthanthegreat]

dwayanu, I love it, have an Exalt! on me.

[dwayanu]

I've deleted a post about a crystal basis and hex-geomorph scheme that on reflection was not satisfactory.

It seems to me that the bigger the city, the bigger the problem of providing enough access points without giving the players too much freedom.

Building a map of randomly placed geomorphs greatly reduces opportunity to ensure that the "flowchart" or "decision point" function works well.

I'm back to considering the more horizontally compact and vertically rich -- the more dungeon-like -- structure I envisioned from reading "Red Nails."

That was put to good use in TSR's Module B4. Perhaps one way to get a more distinctive feel is to have several such complexes standing in the midst of ruins (the latter suggesting the city's former extent and including a few more solid buildings).

One faction might have the upper hand in complex A and be making inroads in B, the B faction vice-versa.

[mahrundl]

dwayanu said:

It seems to me that the bigger the city, the bigger the problem of providing enough access points without giving the players too much freedom.

And of course there's at least one really big problem with cities: flying characters. They get in everywhere!

[greentongue]

Giant frogs love fliers.
Zzzit! Slurp!

(and other "turrent" type creatures.)

Also Giant spiders with transparent webs.
=

[makofan]

Good ideas, Greentongue!

[Mordorandor]

Dec 10, 2007 22:47:51 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Pardon, but this may be a bit disorderly -- I'm "brainstorming."

Because I like long passages in my dungeons, I've long been in the habit of first sketching a "big picture" at 240' per inch.

My latest idea is for a ruined city at that scale: about a mile on its long axis, if I use 8.5"x11" sheets for quadrants.

I'm thinking that "levels" traditionally marked vertically could depend instead on proximity to the center.

Feedback?

I've done this a few times, with a single spiral staircase to the first floor of the dungeon.

From that center, rooms of a certain proximity to the center were 1st-level dungeon rooms, next farther rooms were 2nd-level dungeon rooms, etc.

Worked very well, but man, stocking the dungeon took some time to ensure no one stepped through a door into an unkeyed space!

Had to keep the concentric levels fairly small and tight to ensure I didn't get burn out from stocking so much at once.

[jamesmishler]

Big Rubble for RuneQuest was exactly this sort of adventure.