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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 15:23:13 GMT -6
Hello. I was just wondering what the flavor reasons were behind elves being able to switch between Magic-User and Fighting-Man were. Thanks.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 15:38:00 GMT -6
Why not? Okay, on a more serious note ... you should keep in mind this was the first example of multi-classing and therefore a new concept. The miniatures war-gaming origins of the authors should be considered as well. Just as cavalry units could function as both cavalry and infantry, but not at the same time; so could the elf function as either a fighter or magic-user (but again not at the same time). It was probably, therefore, not so much a decision as an assumption; a natural extension of the rules with which the writers (Arneson and Gygax) were already familiar. Later, somebody looked at the Elf class and made the leap of logic that became the Elf as it appeared in BD&D and multi-classing as it was delineated in AD&D. Does this help? |
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 15:59:00 GMT -6
So it's more of a crunch thing than a fluff thing?
Makes sense.
What sorts of explanations do people provide for this flavor-wise in games?
It kind of reminds me of the Cosmic-build Sorcerers from 4E. Do people ever play it sort of like that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 16:17:55 GMT -6
I've played OD&D since it was published in the 1970's and can't recall the last time I needed to explain this class to someone (merely remind them it works a little differently).
I would encourage you, as referee, to think up an explanation for why this works the way it does in your campaign. Remember, the world works in whatever way you say it works.
Failing that, change the way the Elf works in your world. OD&D is a robust system that withstands a lot of tinkering without breaking. Have a blast with it.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 16:21:00 GMT -6
Cool.
What sort of explanation do you use out of curiosity? Just wondering.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
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Post by busman on Apr 21, 2009 16:34:47 GMT -6
I'm still getting a lot of 3E/4E thought process from this question. Fluff and Crunch are concepts brand new. In OD&D it was ALL crunch. At least as far as the rules were concerned. Even Greyhawk and Blackmoor expansions were really more about rules than the worlds they represented.
Why do elves get this?
Because they do.
You're going to have to beat the rules lawyering out of any of your players, and yourself. I still catch myself doing this from time to time as well. I was a well known rules lawyer in AD&D, and it's only been a bit over a year since I've re-committed myself to OD&D.
As dubeers says, you're the referee, it works the way you say it works. But just as importantly, it shouldn't matter that much. Why? Because these are the rules as they are laid out. Let's accept them and get to the gaming.
What explanation do I use for why elves get this? I don't use any.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 16:40:56 GMT -6
Oh.
'Cuz I was thinking maybe the elves, their personalities, and their connection to magic, wax and wane with the seasons, the lunar cycle, and the passage of night and day.
The sun gives them physical strength and energy, but the moon gives them magic.
What I want to see however is transitional stages for dawn and dusk.
Is that OK? What do you think?
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 21, 2009 16:41:57 GMT -6
Well, the original elves were somewhat interchangable with fairies, and not the little "Tinker Bell" types but the fae folk or sidhe from European legend. As such they were magical types but also fighters. I'd say that this is the reason they have the ability to switch back and forth, since they weren't real Wizards and not really combat-tank Fighters, either.
Personally, when I think of elves I think of Tolkien's elves, and they had a certain combination of fighting and magic-using skill. On the other hand, pretty much every non-evil non-human creature in Tolkien's world had some level of magic-using skill. (Tolkien called it "crafting" and used this to explain the wonderful armor and fireworks and such that various races could create.)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 21, 2009 18:51:26 GMT -6
I was thinking maybe the elves, their personalities, and their connection to magic, wax and wane with the seasons, the lunar cycle, and the passage of night and day. The sun gives them physical strength and energy, but the moon gives them magic. What I want to see however is transitional stages for dawn and dusk. Is that OK? What do you think? That sounds perfectly fine to me. The important thing to grasp is that it's whatever you want it to be. There is no single answer that is "right" or "wrong", and no one (other than you) can tell you what works best for you. For me, I prefer to use an additional fighting-man/magic-user class for Elves, which I call the warlock. So elves in my game can choose to be fighting-men, magic-users, or warlocks. But that's just me. |
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 20:52:04 GMT -6
There is no single answer that is "right" or "wrong", and no one (other than you) can tell you what works best for you. Understood. I just like to get examples an input from others. It helps get my creative juices going when I can see how other people do things. I also like to know what other people have made before I go ahead and create something so I don't feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 21, 2009 21:24:31 GMT -6
Wheels were made to be re-invented!  I dunno...sorry. It is a weird 'mechanic', and obviously a sort of proto-multiclass. I think it's probably the biggest nod to Tolkien in OD&D (wait a minute...it had hobbits originally...) - but even there it still reflects a sort of generic European folklore take. I imagine that it's really just the need felt for a class inbetween Fighting Man and Magic-User. I'll admit that I never made an elf character play that way - though I don't think it's a bad idea. I like the ideas you were coming up with above. What if the choice was taken out of the player's hands (just for a lark!) - at every new moon their class switched - or if they gained a level their 'natural capriciousness' took over and they had to switch to the other... have fun with it! |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Apr 21, 2009 21:31:31 GMT -6
We had a guy running a wererat once. We used a very similar mechanic. It was great. Through in some Hulk, when you get angry thing into it, so that if he started getting upset about being switched it just happened more quickly. heh.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 21, 2009 21:47:21 GMT -6
I like the wererat analogy.
Perhaps the elf could actually have 'mood swings' throughout the day, switching uncontrollably between classes and corresponding personalities. As a magic-user the elf could be really moody and phlegmetic, but as a fighting-man the elf could be really upbeat and sanguine.
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Post by chgowiz on Apr 22, 2009 7:33:10 GMT -6
I like the wererat analogy. Perhaps the elf could actually have 'mood swings' throughout the day, switching uncontrollably between classes and corresponding personalities. As a magic-user the elf could be really moody and phlegmetic, but as a fighting-man the elf could be really upbeat and sanguine. I'm playing in a (very slow) Play by forum post where the elf seems to change depending on how much he's been drinking the previous day. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU, snorri - your elf on the Reaper pbp...) |
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Post by Random on Apr 22, 2009 7:52:03 GMT -6
The miniatures war-gaming origins of the authors should be considered as well. Just as cavalry units could function as both cavalry and infantry, but not at the same time; so could the elf function as either a fighter or magic-user (but again not at the same time). That gives me an interesting idea. Have elves function as magic-users at range (possibly with magical armor) and fighting men in hand-to-hand combat, gaining whatever fighting capability is appropriate to their situation. This would be making two huge (and not disagreeable to me) assumptions: 1. Elves are not great archers. 2. Magic-users may cast spells while engaged in hand-to-hand combat. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 22, 2009 8:38:20 GMT -6
I'll admit that I never made an elf character play that way - though I don't think it's a bad idea. I don't play elves so that they have to switch back and forth, but instead have them advance as both classes at the same time. I limit their armor choices and allow them to use swords and cast spells at the same time. I like the ideas you were coming up with above. What if the choice was taken out of the player's hands (just for a lark!) - at every new moon their class switched - or if they gained a level their 'natural capriciousness' took over and they had to switch to the other... An interesting concept. I like the way you think! :-) |
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Post by snorri on Apr 22, 2009 10:19:19 GMT -6
I'm playing in a (very slow) Play by forum post where the elf seems to change depending on how much he's been drinking the previous day. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU, snorri - your elf on the Reaper pbp...) I ashamed because as the game is very slow, I didn't looked at it for a while, and I should update. This is worse: I roll randomly if i'm fighter or magic-user each day - and my name and behaviour changes as well |
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Post by chgowiz on Apr 22, 2009 14:26:34 GMT -6
This is worse: I roll randomly if i'm fighter or magic-user each day - and my name and behaviour changes as well But, interestingly, your drinking of alchohol stays the same... ;D |
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Post by snorri on Apr 22, 2009 19:06:51 GMT -6
Exactly! But your suggestion could be interesting for another elf character. The explanation I give to this switch is that, every days, spirits says Gywnned / Valley if he shoudl be a fighter or a magic-user...
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Post by chgowiz on Apr 23, 2009 7:28:46 GMT -6
Exactly! But your suggestion could be interesting for another elf character. The explanation I give to this switch is that, every days, spirits says Gywnned / Valley if he shoudl be a fighter or a magic-user... Right, but from Amarixes (my mage) perspective, he sees you drinking all the time and you did say that elves did that before combat. |
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Post by apeloverage on Apr 23, 2009 9:41:28 GMT -6
Oh. 'Cuz I was thinking maybe the elves, their personalities, and their connection to magic, wax and wane with the seasons, the lunar cycle, and the passage of night and day. The sun gives them physical strength and energy, but the moon gives them magic. What I want to see however is transitional stages for dawn and dusk. Is that OK? What do you think? That's what I'd do. I read somewhere, in an article on dungeon design, that players will accept things that are really strange more easily than things that are only a bit strange. So a monster in a room that's too small for it to get in or out is annoyingly illogical. But if the monster is made of chocolate players will just accept it as a weird magical thing. Similarly, saying that elves' powers derive from the sun and moon and change depending on which one's in the sky, is probably more acceptable than saying that armour inteferes with casting spells or something like that. |
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Post by snorri on Apr 23, 2009 9:45:39 GMT -6
Exactly! But your suggestion could be interesting for another elf character. The explanation I give to this switch is that, every days, spirits says Gywnned / Valley if he shoudl be a fighter or a magic-user... Right, but from Amarixes (my mage) perspective, he sees you drinking all the time and you did say that elves did that before combat. I hope they do! Elves from fairy tales are fond of feasts and drinks. The real fun is the player don't drink alcohol at all  |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 23, 2009 11:02:56 GMT -6
I don't drink much. It's never changed me into a M-U...
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