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Post by supernaught on Apr 9, 2009 18:54:56 GMT -6
I was wondering how many stalwarts here develop the upper works of their megadungeons? In Best of the Dragon Annual #2, Gary Gygax reveals the first version of Castle Greyhawk had very little in the way of an above ground presence. In his article Founding Greyhawk Gary indicated, “the first incarnation of Castle Greyhawk was to have no substantial above ground presence. A few rats and minor bandit nuisances only, with entrances to the real adventure area below hidden by rubble, so the “upper works” received short shrift. Entrances here, here and there and four minor areas, and a pit area where an adventurer of incautious sort might slide down and take damage, but possibly find another hidden entrance to the first level”. This clearly coincides with preparation for a campaign in Men and Magic as dungeons beneath a “huge ruined pile, a vast castle built by generations of mad wizards and insane geniuses”.
Since I have started planning the beginning stages of my own megadungeon Hawkhaven, I have considered how much of an above ground presence I should develop. So, I am very curious what my fellow gamers have done with their own “upper works”? Perusing my copy of First Fantasy Campaign, Dave Arneson (RIP) indicates the “castle is still blank since it has been destroyed twice and rebuilt twice then taken over by non-player elves when the local adventurers were exiled. Thus, there are no sheets or goodies for it and only a sketch of its appearance”. Again, we have no substantial above ground constructions and I can’t seem to find any map of the Castle in the book, only its dungeons.
Finally, back to Dragon Annual #2, Gary states that the second incarnation of the Castle drafted “ was complete, mostly undamaged above ground. It had multiple levels, and a lot of encounters, the higher up, the more dangerous”. Now this offers a tremendous amount of real estate to explore but adds a great deal more to the design process. I have been leaning towards the “ruined pile” as advocated in Men and Magic but it is tempting to draw up an intact above ground Castle. Have any of my fellow grognards leaned in this direction?
God bless:-)
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Post by evreaux on Apr 10, 2009 9:49:10 GMT -6
It's an interesting idea, although frankly the idea of next designing a dungeon going up over the one I've made going down is enough to send me screaming for the (possibly false, probably trapped) exits. And I think it wouldn't fit with how I've situated my dungeon--I just have some scattered ruins on a hilltop that mark the main entrance.
That said, there isn't any reason why you couldn't do it, of course. I know that Dwayanu experimented with a lateral "dungeon" of sorts in a city, and wheggi's dungeon is the Tower of Wheggi. And it could provide a nice change of pace from being in the ground all of the time (I'm thinking of the possibilities of airborne encounters at windows, external ladders from one level to the next accessed through locked windows, multi-level courtyards, invisible stairways over stomach-churning heights, etc.). You might have a number of areas with natural lighting, as well. Or you could have a path to, say, level 10 of your dungeon that can only be accessed from a secret door in the ramparts of the castle wall, far above. Or twin thrones that do something neat, one in the castle's great hall and one in the depths of the ground below. I've done some of this in my dungeon, but on a castle in a pocket dimension, as opposed to standing above the place.
Do keep us posted if you play around with the idea.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 10, 2009 9:58:44 GMT -6
I am more of a "ruined pile" type of guy.
If you have to make the above castle, it somehow needs to be made with more sense and seem more real. The dungeons are easier because they don't need to have sense and there is little "real world" comparison to be made.
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Post by parmstrong on Apr 10, 2009 10:33:53 GMT -6
I have a six level haunted castle above the megadungeon in my campaign. The highest in the castle the party has gone is to the 4th level where most of them perished and those that survived ran for their lives. They haven't been back.
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Post by supernaught on Apr 10, 2009 12:05:33 GMT -6
Very cool parmstrong :)I love it when players are scared out of their wits ;D A long time ago, I ran an adventure based on an extra-dimensional citadel that appeared at certain times of the year and faded to other planes of existence. The players were walking down a passage covered by fog and one by one they started to drop with screams of anguish. A panic ensued and a couple of characters perished. They never knew what hit them. The passage was covered in green slime and the fog issued from an area up ahead which they never got to explore as they fled for their lives  I am new to the boards but have been involved in the hobby since 1982. I am 39 now and have done a wee bit of freelance writing. I contributed to Gary Gygax's The Canting Crew and I designed an adventure for Plain Brown Wrapper Games for Mutants and Masterminds titled Strange Magic. God bless everyone  |
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Apr 10, 2009 15:45:23 GMT -6
Call me a cynic, but I always assumed it was just plain old laziness on part of our greats. After all, drawing a random layout of rooms and tunnels is mucxh simpler then doing something that's simultaneously fun to play and conforms to people's expectations (and common logic) based on experience with real life castles and the like.
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Post by harami2000 on Apr 10, 2009 17:15:24 GMT -6
Call me a cynic, but I always assumed it was just plain old laziness on part of our greats. After all, drawing a random layout of rooms and tunnels is mucxh simpler... Well, semi-random, perhaps? Some clear "set pieces" and quite a bit of squiggle in between to fill the gaps. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 10, 2009 18:03:02 GMT -6
In general, the ruined pile appeals to me more, and is my usual default.
Really I tend to go in for more absurd entry points for mega-dungeons
(vs. mundane dungeons (?)) - the old teleport-spell-gone-awry trick,
the old cave-revealed-by-recent-eathquake-trick, etc...
This has made me think of something that I'll have to put in another
thread! I exalt you in thanks!
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Post by Ghul on Apr 10, 2009 19:33:21 GMT -6
And this is what I had the pleasure of developing under Gary's guidance during his last year with us. For the fortress, we went with a prominent central section with a pair of wing sections branching therefrom. These wings each had corner towers from which turrets extended. Atop the aforementioned central section rose a lofty pair of spires. The entire central portion and its extending spires were carved from solid stone; gneiss, to be precise.
The castle complex was constructed atop a sloping rocky bluff overlooking a river, and so the first dungeon level, "The Storerooms", was placed within the confines of that bluff, with many connections to the more expansive dungeons below it which may never see print, unfortunately.
Gary provided me with many encounters to be developed in the castle ruins, but he also provided me ample latitude in developing many of the encounters myself; notwithstanding, there was a large amount of my developmental work that he read and re-read, providing me with critical feedback and commentary and his own rewrites. One idea we went with was the following: Zagyg's castle was enshrouded in mystical fog for many years, and so it had become a place of legendary adventure, sung of by tavern bard and the like. The fog rebuffed all ingress attempts by its seekers. During that time, the castle fortress regenerated, but its precincts remained in varying degrees of ruin, including its walls, towers, gatehouses, and postern. One day the fog lifted, and the call for adventure began anew.
The fortress was a lot of fun, and it was indeed the first time I had ever developed a multi-encounter castle complex above the megadungeon. Like many here, I'd been tinkering with my own dungeons since I was a young teen in the early 80s.
It's also true, as one poster remarks above, that you have to inject some realism into the development of an actual castle, and so I did study many floor plans of historical castles, yet ever did we keep in mind that the world was one of fantasy, the castle being the construct of a mad archmage.
It is a challenge to develop a huge castle complex above your megadungeon, fellows, but a fun one!
Best,
Jeff T.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 11, 2009 6:07:51 GMT -6
I think that the "ruined pile" is the better approach in most cases, and not just out of laziness.
The traditional dungeon model assumes that monsters, dangers, and treasures tend to get larger as the dungeon gets deeper. As the characters delve deeper, they advance to higher levels in order to meet the greater challenge. If I place a castle at the top, one of two things has to happen:
1. The inhabitants are low level so that low-level characters can deal with them. This makes a little challenge as to how to get into the dungeon, but maybe not one worth the effort of designing and filling the castle.
2. The inhabitants are higher level (perhaps higher in level as we advance to higher levels of the castle?) but this is less logical and potentially makes delving into the dungeon less special and more of an after-thought.
I’ve done it both ways (ruins and full castle) and the ruins always worked out best for me.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 11, 2009 20:44:53 GMT -6
It may depend on where in the game world your dungeon is.
The dungeon I am currently working on is directly beneath the game's central town, so the "upper works" are really the town itself.
Having said that, I am not spend enormous energies detailing the town -- just enough to provide a feel for the environment, a little background material, and a home base for PC operations.
The main details I have troubled with are the various dungeon entrances, who uses them, and for what.
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Post by supernaught on Apr 24, 2009 10:56:21 GMT -6
I just wanted to thank everyone for their answers to my question and the warm welcome to these boards It is truly a pleasure to be able to share a hobby with so many enthusiasts and learn of your own opinions and experiences. LOL, I absolutely agree it is a daunting task but fascinating nonetheless. An intact Castle above a megadungeon is like having a dungeon in reverse above the dark depths. The highest levels of the Castle are just as dangerous as the lowest levels of the dungeon or close enough to be worth the risk of commensurate rewards. Having said that, it is a lot of work. This is the one problem I have with the idea. Learning to design an adequate map of a castle is a bit of a challenge. Designing unique and varied dungeons takes a lot of imagination and time all by itself yet it is a very alluring prospect. Enough floor plans of historical and fantasy castles are available on the web to give plenty of inspiration to design one; not to mention various game aids by various publishers. The Castle Books by Judges Guild comes to mind. The utility of these products starts to get greater appreciation as one contemplates designing a personal dungeon environment. If nothing else than for the inspiration as most of us want to create everything for ourselves. ;D I have been considering a semi-ruined pile for my megadungeon. A few towers, parts of the main keep, stables, smithy, gatehouse and perhaps a shrine of some sort. Of course, some of these locations will have secret doors that lead to various parts of the dungeon. Part of the reason an above ground presence appeals to me is a good place for various riff-raff like bandits, fugitives and even rival adventuring parties to take shelter. Also, the ambiance alone is worth a little bit of extra work. I love this idea! David Hargrave was very fond of towers. The Howling Tower comes to mind and is one of my favorites. The cool thing about towers is that you can place a megadungeon under it, build the tower as high as you want it to go and thus have both above and below ground environments with a lot less work than a castle. God bless, Roy |
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Post by murquhart72 on Jul 23, 2017 17:04:00 GMT -6
I like having "something" up there to approach (and exit from). But not necessarily an actual castle or levels. I'm thinking more like a vague outline or perhaps just the towers and walls of a castle, with no real floors. Much open air. Crumbling ruin. You can see where the keep was, the well (a possible entrance?), but any wooden buildings would've rotted away long ago. The ground floor is there, and in the towers may actually hold an encounter or hidden treasure or two, but the upper floors aren't safe enough to navigate (for the most part).
That's my take any way.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jul 23, 2017 19:28:55 GMT -6
I've been thinking of doing something with the Four Tors in Greyhawk for some time now. I have some ideas, but could use some more Greyhawk Lore, if possible. (anyone?) Yggsburgh was the first I heard of it.
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