benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Apr 6, 2009 16:27:00 GMT -6
See here on RPG.net. From RPGNow: Also here on WotC's boards. My suggestion: get your D&D PDFs from Paizo while you can. EDIT - WotC halts PDF sales. Period. Modified thread title to reflect this. |
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Apr 6, 2009 16:38:15 GMT -6
Update from Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo:
My question: Has WotC asked the same thing from Paizo?
Yes. You have until the end of today to buy any PDFs you might want. Also, you will want to make sure you download any PDFs that you have already purchased. We will have a more formal announcement being sent out to all our customers once it is approved by Wizards of the Coast.
-Lisa
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 6, 2009 16:54:49 GMT -6
The optimist in me hopes that WotC has stuck a fork in it and sold D&D. I further hope that no new editions of pen-and-paper D&D are published. That way ALL editions would be out-of-print. No more nonsense about a "current" edition.
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
MUTANT LORD
Posts: 309
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Post by edsan on Apr 6, 2009 18:06:44 GMT -6
Well, well, well...
This makes retroclones more necessary than ever, methinks.
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Post by chgowiz on Apr 6, 2009 18:40:41 GMT -6
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 6, 2009 18:52:07 GMT -6
Dropping the OOP editions because of piracy is a nonsensical argument.
1. If people want the real books they buy them second hand - no $ for wizards.
2. If people wanted the PDFs before the went into online sale, they only alternative was pirating - no $ for wizards.
3. Selling the stuff online at least could shed them some bucks once in a while for wizards.
No they go back to the state in which anyone wanting a OPP will either buy it second had or pirate it, with no $ to wizards at all.
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
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Post by mythmere on Apr 6, 2009 19:15:36 GMT -6
Well, WotC might not even realize this will affect the old books - it's probably a (poorly thought out) attempt to protect their newer stuff.
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 6, 2009 19:59:48 GMT -6
Looks like the time is ripe to support your self-publishing retro-clone games!
I'll be doing my best to promote Swords & Wizardry, BFRPG, LL, OSRIC, Fight On! and Knockspell to everyone I know (and even to those I don't know!).
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oldgamergeek
Level 3 Conjurer
I R the dungeon kitty ,save vs catnap
Posts: 71
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Post by oldgamergeek on Apr 6, 2009 20:41:47 GMT -6
As a game designer, who has seen his work, over the past several years distributed and copied without permission or compensation, I wonder how you would feel about the theft of your intellectual property ? How would you suggest that Copyright violations on the Internet be handled ? I dig what your saying I hope wizards will make a way for us old grognards to get the stuff we want all legal like . |
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 6, 2009 20:47:40 GMT -6
As a game designer, who has seen his work, over the past several years distributed and copied without permission or compensation, I wonder how you would feel about the theft of your intellectual property ? How would you suggest that Copyright violations on the Internet be handled ? I don't disagree that something should be done about people who steal, but this isn't going to discourage stealing. I read the press releases and the WotC Imp-ployee who posted this was all in response to the digital copies of their latest PHB2 going up on pirate sites...people have been pirating books since the creation of the game. Gary himself once said the copies of the rules at one point outnumbered the actual books sold back in the beginning. This isn't new and we all know how WotC pulls a marketing blunder then makes a flimsy excuse then makes a grab for more money. I don't doubt that the pdf's will resurface on their own digital store when they feel an acceptable amount of time has passed and they feel tempers have cooled down. I won't be buying them though. If this was truly about pirated IP I would have thought they would have done something when they acquired D&D from TSR almost 20 years ago (yeah it's been that long) and not all of the sudden on a Monday nearly 2 decades later. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2009 22:29:26 GMT -6
Although everyone knows that pulling 4e pdfs won't stop them from being pirated, at least they are in print. It absolutely makes no sense to pull out of print books from a pdf store. Like Zulgyan said, you go from making no money from out of print to making money from out of print to making no money out of print. Why not at least keep everything pre 3rd edition for sale as a pdf?
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 6, 2009 23:15:32 GMT -6
As i have always said people are going to find a way to pirate regardless... That just is not a strong enough argument for me.. I think they are just trying to over promote 4e myself...
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 7, 2009 7:48:18 GMT -6
Will your hobby be better off without the big companies making money ? GaryCon gone, how far behind will be Rock Con and Gen Con ? In a word, yes. Will there be some hardship and changes? Sure there will and maybe for a long time. Without big company money dangled like a carrot on a stick people will have to pick up the slack at a grassroots level. Support your Cons, make an effort to get to them and play the games, buy something from the various vendors and donate to the Con. Gen Con wasn't the big affair it is today, or just another stop on some gamer's yearly Con list, it was THE con to get to if you could. Because of TSR's sponsorship? Nope, it was all about the games. Nowadays, it seems the games have taken a back seat to the Company...here's an opening now to make the Cons a Gamer event again and not a company's event to trot out some new ruleset 'improvement' that mysteriously requires you to re-buy every book you own to play the game still. Where is the next Dungeon & Dragons, Diplomacy, Rail Baron, Source of the Nile, Magic:the Gathering, Cosmic Encounter coming from ? I played and designed in the pre "Golden Age of Gaming" with scattered pockets of fanatics. How long did SPI last ? What about Avalon Hill ? What happened to some great game designs from small independent publishers, only available today on Ebay at exaggerated prices ? You have the economic downturns of the late 70's and early 80's. And, those downturns were mild compared with what this year offers. Economic contractions are murder on the small hobbies. Unregulated online publishing drives your local brick and mortar gamestore out of business. Unfortunately Game Stores are fading, it's not just the depression we are in, it's been a slow decline. I've seen 3 of my favorite haunts shut down in the last 10 years. Gamers in general are moving out of the stores and onto the internet. Where are the next great games coming from you ask? People like you, and me and anyone who played and liked the games and still plays them, even after all these years. The difference between 1974 and 2009 is the internet. Instead of having to shop your game around to Big Company, you can create it yourself and put it out on the internet for sale. You can reach and get in touch with thousands of people in an instant, no more scattered pockets. Will piracy be ended ? No. But, can there be better methods of distribution that protects the next new game designer's rights and protects your neighborhood game store. I hope so. Unfortunately for all the good that can be done the internet will always have its seedier underside. I don't advocate pirating anything, but I'm also a realist - the more someone tries to create a better anti-piracy whatever, the more someone will make it their mission in life to break it, if for no other reason than to say they can. Personally I'm waiting for the Star Trek model to win out - there is no money or need for it in the future. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 7, 2009 9:42:25 GMT -6
As a game designer, who has seen his work, over the past several years distributed and copied without permission or compensation, I wonder how you would feel about the theft of your intellectual property ? How would you suggest that Copyright violations on the Internet be handled ? As a game designer, who has seen his work over the past several years distributed and copied without permission or compensation I find it flattering that people think my work is worth pirating and fully recognize that those who are pirating it very likely wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and thus aren't hurting my sales at all. |
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Apr 7, 2009 10:22:58 GMT -6
How long did SPI last ? What about Avalon Hill ? What happened to some great game designs from small independent publishers, only available today on Ebay at exaggerated prices ? You have the economic downturns of the late 70's and early 80's. And, those downturns were mild compared with what this year offers. Economic contractions are murder on the small hobbies. D&D was born in the 70's unemployment and disposable cash were sadder then they are now. Times of economic upset are good for new products and games. Avalon Hill was in business for about 40 years. SPI was in business for about 13 years. Changing markets with the rise of RPGs and Computer Games helped the demise of those firms. |
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
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Post by mythmere on Apr 7, 2009 15:12:04 GMT -6
I find it illegal and a detriment to the hobby. And, I believe Mr Arneson and Mr Gygax would agree. It's possible to agree with both those points. I wouldn't agree that it's exactly flattering, because people who do that to in-print products are absolutely stealing bread out of peoples' mouths. But it's going to happen. At the same time, and while I agree with the sentiments of everyone who's now thinking that if piracy's forced on you by someone who's no longer even willing to take your money in a legitimate purchase, what I hate about this is that it may create a whole culture of piracy and also make us be seen not for the creativity that's burgeoning right now, but for the fact that we may become seen as IP pirates - with that as our defining factor. And that would be a tragedy. I don't think it's exactly imminent as a "tag" - after all, we didn't get tagged that way before the OD&D pdfs were posted, and that was in fairly recent memory anyway. Honestly, the whole thing has me boggled a bit, because the bizarre factor here - at least unless WotC actually does put the books back up at a new site - is the unwillingness to take the money at all from legitimate buyers, when there's no loss to them in making the sales. The irrationality of that creates a tangled ethical question, as many ethical questions are when one side acts irrationally. It's a real box-in. |
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Post by robertsconley on Apr 7, 2009 16:43:33 GMT -6
At the same time, and while I agree with the sentiments of everyone who's now thinking that if piracy's forced on you by someone who's no longer even willing to take your money in a legitimate purchase, Unfortunately history has shown that regardless of item, or media. If there is a demand somebody will cater to the demand regardless of what the law or ethics say. Particularly in the case of stuff that intrinsically not harmful, like printed material, music, etc. Time and time again the way to combat this type of activity is to fulfill the demand faster and easier than the pirates do. Plus the publisher/author has one advantage the pirate doesn't. That is they care about the work. That they are more often willing to make it a quality product with a quality experience. As the struggles of the third party D&D market has shown people put a premium on material produced by the original source. So while piracy sucks for authors there are way around it that don't involve treating your customers like thieves. |
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Post by dwayanu on Apr 7, 2009 21:23:11 GMT -6
Sweeping the out of print material in with the 4E stuff is what does not make sense to me, and I suspect Mythmere is right that whoever at Wizbro sent out the order did not have OD&D in mind.
Mr. Krebs makes valid points, but I do not think they are immediately germane to the interest here -- which is clearly in OD&D, not in the 4E PHB2.
In the wider culture, I have seen a disturbing trend of folks thinking themselves entitled to get works for whatever low price they put on those works, or as close as they can practically get.
The "practically" aspect is on the cutting edge of technological advances. Guardians of Order gave away a PDF of Tri-Stat Dx. I also bought a professionally printed and bound copy -- and found that much better value than printing from the PDF and then photocopying.
Home production of the medium (i.e., the printed and bound book) is likely to keep becoming higher in quality and lower in price. Audio recordings and computer programs have already gone far down that road. Apple seems (from what I've seen) to have come up with a good business model for musicians in its iPod and iTunes products.
What really bothers me is what I see as increasing lack of appreciation for the value of labor put into the actual creative work -- the labor of musicians, writers, illustrators, programmers and so on.
People who can afford it are likely to buy a book because it's more convenient than the alternative media. When it's at least as convenient to make a pirated book, then we may face a big problem.
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 8, 2009 3:08:44 GMT -6
Yes i think it's wrong but just not giving anyone a legal acess point to find copies of something will reality drive piracy up...
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oldgamergeek
Level 3 Conjurer
I R the dungeon kitty ,save vs catnap
Posts: 71
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Post by oldgamergeek on Apr 13, 2009 9:51:18 GMT -6
The legitimate customer is the one who gets hurt the most as he/she cannot get the oop games unless they can find and afford a used copy.
My group has taken steps to be legal and still have " our kind of game " starting this week we will be using Swords and Wizardry for our fantasy type games . sorry WOTC no more money for you .
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Post by gkaralunas on Aug 30, 2009 10:51:17 GMT -6
for me the Wizards can keep the vault closed.
I did a bit of piracy in my younger days - - Fidonet period - - mostly Adult Games and grew out of it about 1989.
I still leach a lot, but if people are willing to give the material away for free (Mostly samples) whose to complain.
But then again if Congress start paying Vet's a decent pension I would be spending some hard cash via Check or Money Orders (we have sworn off Credit Cards for life).
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