Clerics and conversion

[badger2305]

So there I was thinking about clerics, gods, and worship. Part of the idea behind clerics is that they are defenders of their faith, right? And the gods do desire worshippers, right?

But where do those worshippers come from? Eventually, Patriarchs get lots of loyal followers, but there's not much there before that. But the idea of having a group of the "faithful" is there.

So clerics might benefit from having some sort of ability to convert people to their faith. In the interests of keeping mechanics simple, I would like to suggest the following:

Conversion: Starting at 4th level, clerics may attempt to convert persons to their faith. This requires a sufficient period of time to converse with, or preach to, a person or group of people, usually 2-5 turns (d4+1). While a friendly audience is favorable, it is not required; even those who are indifferent in their initial reaction are potential converts.

To determine the possibility of conversion, use the "Turning Undead" table in your favorite set of rules. For the purposes of conversion, a cleric is treated as being three experience levels lower than their current rank, e.g. a 5th level cleric is treated as being 2nd level for the purposes of conversion.

To interpret the results, proceed as follows: the cleric converses with a group of listeners. Those of the same alignment as the cleric are treated as 1HD undead (or the lowest sort of undead), while those of different alignments are treated as being two or four levels higher, e.g. a Chaotic audience listening to a Lawful cleric would be treated as having 5HD (or the fifth rank of Undead).

A result of "T" on the table means that the audience is willing to think about the faith of the cleric, and is open to potential conversion (further results of "T" should be eventually treated as "D"). A result of "D" indicates the audience is definitely open to conversion. If a number is given, a roll is made for the cleric. If the roll is made, then the audience is willing to think about the faith of the cleric, as above. Another roll is then made for the number of people so affected. For both the success and number affected roll, a cleric may use their WIS bonus (if any) as a positive modifier.

It is up to the referee to determine how many times are necessary for conversion to the cleric's faith to take place. In areas with many clerics preaching, such as large cities, an audience might be resistant to change, and therefore might be treated as several levels higher or require many more attempts at conversion for this to actually happen. Differences in native language may also contribute, and so on.

Actual use in game play: as is immediately evident, such a system could result in the fantasy equivalent of the Thirty Years' War, if overplayed or abused. What this system is suggested for is determining the relative success of a cleric in attracting personal followers, maintaining their congregation (if charged with such a duty), or acting to spread their faith in new lands. Potential adventure hooks include the following:

• A cleric with congregation may end up having to deal with a hidden cult converting people to a radically different faith and alignment.
  
• An imprisoned cleric may attempt to influence their guards so as to affect an escape.
  
• A noble or ruler has asked for a convocation of clerics to guide him in his choice of proper religion.
  

I am quite sure there are some referees who would not want to get into this issue at all. However, it may be of use to those wanting to add some depth to clerics and their role in the game world.

What do you all think?

[jjarvis]

It's a good idea. I can see it being a little difficult to pull off in play. "Hey guys, stop killing them I want to convert them."

There was a similar system posted in WhiteDwarf a couple of decades ago.

[ragnorakk]

I like this. I've always enjoyed the idea of cleric as proselytizer, but when it is 'role-played' usually
comes-off too heavy handed or something (in my experiences). That's a good mechanic for it, but I think if
I was refereeing it's use I'd be tempted to limit its use to 'the masses' for whom such opiates are intended.

Using the turning tables is way better than save-vs-magic or somesuch.

[codeman123]

Well alot of my players who play clerics do the whole conversion thing anyways. I dont really think you need a mechanic for it it's just role playing it out.

[ragnorakk]

I don't think you *need* one, no.
But I think if you wanted to have one this works better than any I
can think of, basically because 1. There's already a table there and
2.(more importantly) it covers a 'number of targets affected'

This has always been a weakness of mine as a DM.
Somewhere in the back of my mind, after a player has just made some
rousing speech or dreadful imprecation or whatever on behalf of the
character to a group of NPC villagers/grunts/whatever - I just lock up.
(I guess I'm considering conversion right now in the same 'category'
as 'public speaking' or speechmaking - try to influence an audience or
a group of listeners...)

So of course I like this use - it plays to one of my weaknesses

Invariably, there's some Doubting Thomas lurking in the crowd, people
too wrapped up in their whatever-everyday and ambivalent to be swayed
by passionate speech or reasoned argument. And just as invariably, I focus
on that and most every attempt at mass-persuasion is half-effective at best.

This is not very fair to the players.
In cases of social interaction, where players are dealing with groups of NPCs
who are not 'special' (i.e. statted out, involved with some part of the story,
etc), I have always struggled to find a way to adjucate the effects - not trusting
myself to keep my own biases and preconceptions out of the resolution.

[sorry - ranting]

[codeman123]

Oh no don't get me wrong i'm not knocking your proposal i think it works fine. Actually for social situations i kind of use a mix of mechanics and actaul role playing myself anyways . But i always make the players talk it out in character to achieve it. As always to each his own all of us DM's have are own little ways of working things out the most important factor really is just rolling dice making shirt up and having fun.

[badger2305]

I definitely agree with the idea that the player can't simply "roll for conversion" but would need to provide some attempt at role-playing. The mechanic is mostly there to make it easier for the referee to figure out the result.

[chronoplasm]

For what its worth, I guess I'll throw in my 4E experiences if that is helpful in any way.

In 4E, HP is very abstract. It generally represents physical health or the desire to keep on fighting, or simply ablative plot-immunity. HP can however, also be used to represent morale, or even moral certainty.

My little sister played a Dragonborn Cleric of Bahamut named Fire.
In one session, she battled a group of Kobold worshippers of Tiamat.
As she fought them, she attempted to convert them to the worship of Bahamut. The kobolds were resistant at first, but when they got to half HP, their conviction started to waver.
At 0 HP, the kobolds gave up fighting and surrendered to Fire. Fire offered to spare the kobolds lives if they would follow her and promise to be good.
Fire healed the kobolds and recruited them to help her get through the dungeon crawl.
As time went on, the kobolds warmed up to Fire and became more helpful.
When the kobolds got back to town with Fire, they went straight to the temple where they were baptized into the church of Bahamut.

I could have made my sister do diplomacy checks to do all of this, but I just let her role-play it out and it worked fine.
If it can work in 4E without getting mechanics involved, then I'm sure it can work just fine in OD&D.

That's just my two-cents.

[Haldo Bramwise]

I like this mechanic. The turn can indeed be used for many things.