A sword and sorcery solution to Clerics

[Zulgyan]

There has long been a "cleric hate" position among many old-school gamers who want their D&D to be more sword&sorcerish.

This is one of the most recent of the many discussions that have happened in the world wide web:

grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/cleric-yet-again.html

I have long wandered in thoughts of this type. But the thing is that many players like clerics and enjoy playing them. So I´ve decided to keep the cleric, but interpret it in "a-not-so traditional" way (but we'll see in the end, that this interpretation fits quite well in the OD&D plain text).

So here are my musings about the cleric:

FIRST. Consider the cleric´s spells to be just another type of magic, but based on untapping, bargaining or even extirpating (sometimes without consent) the powers of powerful extra-planar beings (the "deities"). In fact, the OD&D books don´t speak about miracles or powers. It speaks about spells. Magic. Or more precisely - sorcery (that is, magic based around using the powers of other beings, of supernatural or extraplanar nature.

Doesn´t men & magic imply that clerics use spell books? Yes it does! This spellbooks are of a different kind of that of magic users - they are esoteric texts of forbidden knowledge, forgotten rituals to call forth the beings from beyond! This inhuman passages can be copied to new tomes, learned and practised just like wizard spells! The difference bewteen cleric and wizard magic could be comparable to the difference bewteen wizard and illusionist magic.

If you still want clerics to be able to cast all spells from their list, you can assume that the cleric studies and re-read his books of secret knowledge in his spare time, or reviews them each day before adventuring.

SECOND. The OD&D books don´t require the Cleric to worship a particular one god. Even the AD&D PHB says that "the cleric is dedicated to a deity or deities". The cleric does have to choose and alignment, but he could be able draw power from ALL the deities of that particular alignment. He could use the unholy fire of the Moloch the Fire God to flamestrike an enemy, and later use the finger of death of Thanatos. Both chaotic gods. The deities of an opposed alignment to the cleric would deny, resist or try to fiddle the invocations aimed at them.

THIRD. The cleric-deity relationship is driven mainly by self interest. This is inspired in Melan´s Fomalhout. I give you this, you give me that. "I have allowed you to use my power, so build me a temple for weaklings to worship me as a god". The cleric could even hate his own patron, but obeys him so that it continues to allow him invoke his power. A cleric who fails to comply could face retribution, but mainly out of the vanity and capriciousness of a particular being.

Deities could even fight for a cleric of great power, each offering him higher powers in exchange of favours, deeds and temples. But none give anything powerful for free.

Remember, the cleric is not strong because of the favour of his deity, but because he becomes the best at invoking and managing their divine power. A skill that is not related to devotion but to learning and practice, just like a wizard.

FORTH. I´m, not saying a cleric can not be a genuine follower of his deity. But his devotion should be no different from a fighter that say´s "Thor is da' man, everyone should bow at the hearing of his name", or a magic-used saying "Boccob is truly worthy of worship for his supernatural understanding of the powers hidden in the cosmos". So clerics can be authentic champions and followers of a god. But this would not be necessary or morally demanded. And most of the time it would be guided by self-interest.

FITH. Not all "priests" need to be clerics. In fact, a priest and a cleric should be considered a different (yet compatible) thing. Fighter´s should be able to be priests, magic-users too. Even a beholder could a be a priest of an insane religion.

SIXTH. You can allow clerics to use all weapons, they all deal 1d6 after all. Alternatevily, expand their choices with cutting of piercing weapons like daggers and short sword. Just don’t allow the better weapons. Not as a matter of moral code, but of proficiency, just like the wizard or the thief who know how to use less weapons because they spend more time training in different things.

SEVENTH. I am reworking the cleric spell list a bit, to reflect better this new interpretation. Some of the spells I have published in Fight On! issue nº1.

I think a have posted everything, but must have missed something that´s in my head. If this is reminding you of Elric, it is no coincidence, but he´s not the only inspiration.

[snorri]

I could't agree more

Just a funny point:

- as clerics spells don't clearly come from the gods, but from their spells and spell books, as you stated,

- and as both clerics and magic-user can tinker their own spells

There is no clear reason a cleric couldn't 'clone' a magic-user spell and the reverse too... That's a point that need to be clarified

(anyway, clerics have less spells per level, can't have 6th level one, but higher AC, HD, fight tables and turn undeads).

An easy way to tinker it is to gives MU armors and turn undeads (but no HD and fight tables), and gives Elves the Cleric spell list. It gives perfect fary elves.

[dwayanu]

Well, I think the limited availability of magical weapons (maces and hammers being only 4% of those in Vol. 2) is the big deal in that regard. I figure that letting Anti-Clerics use daggers is a fitting compensation for their loss of the power to turn undead (plus a nice match for the s&s type of evil priest).

If you want players to keep choosing to play Fighting Men, then you had better keep giving them a reason to do so!

[Zulgyan]

Well, fighters still get more HD, better attacks, etc. and you can still rule that only them wield effectibly magical intelligent swords.

- as clerics spells don't clearly come from the gods, but from their spells and spell books, as you stated,

I think they still come from the god. The diference is that they are not granted because of the cleric´s devotion, but because the cleric learns from ancient scriptures, the secret words and rituals to call for the deities´s power. Not only from one deity, but from many too.

[makofan]

I really really like this

[geoffrey]

Feb 21, 2009 18:50:48 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

SECOND. The OD&D books don´t require the Cleric to worship a particular one god. Even the AD&D PHB says that "the cleric is dedicated to a deity or deities". The cleric does have to choose and alignment, but he could be able draw power from ALL the deities of that particular alignment. He could use the unholy fire of the Moloch the Fire God to flamestrike an enemy, and later use the finger of death of Thanatos. Both chaotic gods. The deities of an opposed alignment to the cleric would deny, resist or try to fiddle the invocations aimed at them.

Great post, and I particularly like this point. If there is a pantheon of gods, then clerics would be POLYTHEISTS. It is a pet peeve of mine when clerics in a polytheistic world worship (monotheism-style) only one of the pantheon. A cleric should worship every god in the whole pantheon--whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic.

[cadriel]

Feb 21, 2009 20:47:46 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Great post, and I particularly like this point. If there is a pantheon of gods, then clerics would be POLYTHEISTS. It is a pet peeve of mine when clerics in a polytheistic world worship (monotheism-style) only one of the pantheon. A cleric should worship every god in the whole pantheon--whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic.

Most D&D supplements historically have assumed either henotheism (worship one god while accepting others as basically decent gods) or monolatrism (worship one god, but hold that while other gods exist, they are not worthy of worship). If you read the Old Testament, there are strong implications that the ancient Hebrew religion was more monolatristic than monotheistic. And in reality, pagan societies zig-zagged between traditional polytheism and forms of henotheism, rather than being an even pantheon-based polytheism at all times.

Frankly, there's good pulp fantasy roots for D&D-style henotheism; if you think back to Lean Times in Lankhmar, the gods in Lankhmar generally accept henotheistic worship, with clerics devoted to one deity at a time. Fafhrd is pretty busy boosting Issek of the Jug over the other deities, and things only go wrong when they arrogate Issek above the gods of Lankhmar. That's your D&D type henotheism right there, and in a hell of a classic S&S story.

[terje]

This is really cool! Your idea is close to the Sorcerer roleplaying game where the pc's gain access to powers by making deals with demons.

[snorri]

I thinked about Geoffrey suggestion on clerics worshipping both Law, Neutrality and Chaos gods.

We allreday know that, after the vanishing of balrogs and nazguls, clerics where supposed to choose a definitive alignement at level 7. Before that, they apparently can do it, and some does, as there is clearly two complete hierarchies - the classical one and the one associated with shamanism and High Evil Priests.

So, Geoffrey's suggestion perfectly make sens in that context. Low level priests take there power from all Higher Powers (the only clear name for gods in od&d btb...), or only from Law or Chaos [which reduces their choice]. Only, when they grow in power and understanding, they're in obligation to choose.

So, clerics worships all gods, and high priests and patriarch, only one (or at least, favor one).

[Zulgyan]

You dont´have to choose one god, you just have to choose one aligment - and that can enable you to summon the power of all the gods of that aligment.

But also, I think that you don´t even need to worship the gods, other than guided by self interest. You may even hate the ceremonies and duties imposed by them. You just do it for the power.

[Zulgyan]

Feb 22, 2009 5:50:04 GMT -6 cadriel said:

Feb 21, 2009 20:47:46 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Great post, and I particularly like this point. If there is a pantheon of gods, then clerics would be POLYTHEISTS. It is a pet peeve of mine when clerics in a polytheistic world worship (monotheism-style) only one of the pantheon. A cleric should worship every god in the whole pantheon--whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic.

Most D&D supplements historically have assumed either henotheism (worship one god while accepting others as basically decent gods) or monolatrism (worship one god, but hold that while other gods exist, they are not worthy of worship). If you read the Old Testament, there are strong implications that the ancient Hebrew religion was more monolatristic than monotheistic. And in reality, pagan societies zig-zagged between traditional polytheism and forms of henotheism, rather than being an even pantheon-based polytheism at all times.

Frankly, there's good pulp fantasy roots for D&D-style henotheism; if you think back to Lean Times in Lankhmar, the gods in Lankhmar generally accept henotheistic worship, with clerics devoted to one deity at a time. Fafhrd is pretty busy boosting Issek of the Jug over the other deities, and things only go wrong when they arrogate Issek above the gods of Lankhmar. That's your D&D type henotheism right there, and in a hell of a classic S&S story.

This solution is not contraty to henotheism in a particular setting. You just don´t need the clerics to be the priests of gods. Characters of any class could do it, though clerics could be more common, maybe.

[Matthew]

Feb 21, 2009 19:48:33 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Well, I think the limited availability of magical weapons (maces and hammers being only 4% of those in Vol. 2) is the big deal in that regard. I figure that letting Anti-Clerics use daggers is a fitting compensation for their loss of the power to turn undead (plus a nice match for the s&s type of evil priest).

If you want players to keep choosing to play Fighting Men, then you had better keep giving them a reason to do so!

Indeed; the inability of clerics to make use of magic swords seems to be what Men & Magic is pushing at. If clerics are to be allowed access to a greater degree of weaponry, then I would be inclined to push their required experience total up as well (which I always figured was too low, anyway). Gygax has been known to occasionally remark that he liked to play clerics rather than "straight fighters", which I think is rather revealing of his perception of them.

The relationship of cleric to magic is a tricky and interesting business, and it is also linked to a more general view of "magic" in the campaign. The fundamental question is "can anyone learn magic?" That is to say, is it just a matter of being intelligent or wise enough to qualify for the class, being initiated [i.e. taught read magic or somesuch thing], and then studying the appropriate texts and divining their secrets? Or is there more to it than that? Does a magic user need to possess special unstated qualities that allow him to make use of magic (such as a strange heritage)? Why would somebody choose to pursue clerical magic over that of the magician?

[Deleted]

Taking the cleric out of D&D is like taking Bones out of Star Trek. If handled well it can be a great role play character. Dmt, Jim I'm a cleric not some cold blooded magic user!

[Zulgyan]

This interpretation does not mean you can´t play a cleric in the tradicional way (a champion of a god). .

It´s an effort to keep the cleric in a more sword&sorcerish game, not to kick him out.

[ragnorakk]

FWIW I thknk it's a really cool option for playing a cleric
Thanks too for henotheism & monolatrism - two terms I've never encountered before.

[rodoflordlymight]

Feb 22, 2009 5:50:04 GMT -6 cadriel said:

If you read the Old Testament, there are strong implications that the ancient Hebrew religion was more monolatristic than monotheistic.

True, and this carried over into the NT as well, with Paul saying something like, "Indeed, there are many lords and many gods, but for us there is one Lord . . ." The Bible never denies the existence of the pagan gods as real beings, just that they are worthy of worship in place of the One who created them.

Many "official" D&D settings--the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance in particular--take a similar approach, but with the twist of presenting the Creator as distant and uncaring rather than involved in His creation. In the case of FR, Ao was just a jerk, while Weiss and Hickman (both devout Christians) hint in the annotations to the DL Chronicles and Legends that the High God had withdrawn from the gods of Krynn for their sins in much the same fashion that the gods withdrew from Krynn after the Cataclysm for humanity's sins.

Too bad DL got so badly derailed in and after Dragons of Summer Flame. Exploring the relationship of Krynn's very fallible gods to their Father would have been an interesting story.

In any case, I like this thread's take on clerics. I'm not sure its apropos for my own current campaign, but I'll have to file it away for future reference.

[ragnorakk]

And, tho not a 'cleric', take Elric, who was patronized by deities and wrested power from them by means of 'ancient pacts' and such. Always liked the original Stormbringer, and of course Conan's 'Gods and Demons!' - like there's no difference...

[supernaught]

, and this carried over into the NT as well, with Paul saying something like, "Indeed, there are many lords and many gods, but for us there is one Lord . . ." The Bible never denies the existence of the pagan gods as real beings, just that they are worthy of worship in place of the One who created them.

Sir, you have taken the Apostle Paul's words out of context. What Paul is speaking of is idolatry. Paul does not say these are real deities but rather forces of evil pretending to be "gods". 1 Corinthians 10:19 reads "What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers to demons" This is continued in 1 Corinthians 10:21-22 "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to Jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we"? The Bible clearly shows that pagan “gods’ are nothing but demons.

The Old Testament also gives warning after warning of the perils of falling into idolatry. Every single time the Israelites fell into worshiping false gods the Lord's wrath would descend upon them. I Corinthians 10 is titled Avoid Israel’s Mistakes with good reason. I Corinthians 10:6-13 reads "Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved. And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK AND STOOD UP TO PLAY. Nor let us act immorally as some of them did and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to then as an example, and were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages come".

The Bible is very clear the consequences of falling into the trap of idolatry. ISAIAH 44-9-11 is titled The Folly of Idolatry and reads "Those who fashion graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame. Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit? Behold, all of his companions will be put to shame, for the craftsman themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame". Psalm 135 15-18 “The idols of the nations are but silver and gold, the work of man’s hands. They have mouths, but they do not speak; they have eyes, but they do not see; they have ears, but they do not hear; nor is there any breath in their mouths. Those who make them will be like them, Yes, everyone who trusts in them”. The bible never implies these “gods” the Israelites fall into worship are real. They are but fashioned objects inspired by demons.

The Old Testament continues to warn of the folly and vanity of trusting idols. Calamity after calamity befell Israel because she constantly drifts into idol worship and yet God continued to show compassion and forgave their sins until the birth of Jesus Christ when all were given forgiveness through faith in the only begotten Son of God.

I have been a gamer forever, twenty-seven years to be exact be never really spent the time learning the Word of God that I should have. I have spent countless hours reading and playing games but always neglected learning true wisdom, rather relying on earthly knowledge. Yet, the Lord called and changed my life in the blink of an eye. To truly learn what it means to be a Christian and then actually live it are two different things. Jesus said “Those that hear and yet are not doers of the Word are like a man who looks at himself in a mirror and walks away and promptly forgets what he looked like” and without proper study many Christians are just like the Lord described. I have spent tons of money on gaming goodies yet never really considered the poor or just how fortunate I have been in my life. So I would exhort all to remember those who are in need, be patient, kind, compassionate, gentle and don’t argue over petty things, as the anger of man does not please God. Finally, we are a bunch of grown men playing a silly game and living in a free country that allows us to have so many comforts that we can indulge in a bit of fun and that too are gifts of the Lord.

God bless,

Roy M Mikesell

[edsan]

To paraphrase Charlie Brown:

"Good grief!..."

[supernaught]

"Good grief!..."

I see nothing wrong with answering and correcting someone on Scripture. As a Christian it is my duty and I am not the least bit ashamed of it. I realize these are game boards and I am a gamer like all of the rest of you stalwarts but I am happy to be able to give a small lesson on the Bible . God bless you sir.

Remember, the cleric is not strong because of the favor of his deity, but because he becomes the best at invoking and managing their divine power. A skill that is not related to devotion but to learning and practice, just like a wizard.

Now in a Swords and Sorcery milieu, Zulgyan really has hit upon the essence of what a lot of priests represent in early literature. In Dangerous Journeys, Gary Gygax describes Theurgists as those who use higher forces to gain power. Rather than asking for aid, the theurgist cajoles, demands, and even exacts such from supernatural and lesser ential beings. Because of this, the theurgist is always on the edge of good and evil and the incautious can fall.

Now many who delve into dungeons tend to skirt the edges of good and evil to begin with if you consider how so many people play characters….lol. Besides it fits the mold of Swords and Sorcery where a great majority of heroes are out for personal profit, power and high adventure. So many a beginning theurgist could easily be manipulated or warped by evil forces and turn towards darkness or are just plain nasty to the core. Either way, it is used as a means to gain power either for woe or weal and offers great role-playing potential.

Doesn´t men & magic imply that clerics use spell books? Yes it does! This spellbooks are of a different kind of that of magic users - they are esoteric texts of forbidden knowledge, forgotten rituals to call forth the beings from beyond! This inhuman passages can be copied to new tomes, learned and practised just like wizard spells! The difference bewteen cleric and wizard magic could be comparable to the difference bewteen wizard and illusionist magic.

I am a long time fan of Arduin and have run games using the original rules; priests in the campaign use prayer books just like Zulgyan describes. In fact, ever since I discovered this nifty little gem I have longed to use it in a D&D game but players have always been a bit resistant to the suggestion. So the idea of the theurgist using long lost esoteric knowledge to manipulate forces to gain power and constantly searching the underworld for more makes an excellent motivation for adventure.

THIRD. The cleric-deity relationship is driven mainly by self interest. This is inspired in Melan´s Fomalhout. I give you this, you give me that. "I have allowed you to use my power, so build me a temple for weaklings to worship me as a god". The cleric could even hate his own patron, but obeys him so that it continues to allow him invoke his power. A cleric who fails to comply could face retribution, but mainly out of the vanity and capriciousness of a particular being.

Deities could even fight for a cleric of great power, each offering him higher powers in exchange of favours, deeds and temples. But none give anything powerful for free.

Again, Zulgyan hits the nail on the head. Most Sword and Sorcery “priests” are in it for gain and not altruism in literature. Quite a few are a bit disturbed in the head to boot ;D Perhaps, the cost for gaining the favor of a supernatural power is that the influences the drive said power start to rub off on the character as they progress in ability. A “priest” of some nasty power of darkness will start taking on it’s attributes. For example, a being of chaos might start to change the priest’s appearance or personality in noticeable ways. A being that personifies bravery might start to get reckless courage and one that inspires fear could start to radiate a tangible aura that bothers friend and foe alike. A follower of the loathsome slime lord could start to drip fluids over time and a power that embodies strength could start to hulk out. The idea that power comes with a price really drives home the possibilities.