Patriarch at 8th or 9th level?

[Wanderer Bill]

Hi all,

I've noticed that in S&W clerics reach name level "Patriarch" (and thus the ability to build a castle and gain followers) only at 9th with 170,000 XP, instead of at 8th level with 100,000 XP.

Any Idea how this change came about? In OD&D as well as AD&D clerics are the first class to start the domain game at 8th level. However starting with B/X the basic D&D changed that to level 9, and also simulacrum games like Delving Deeper and S&W take the same route. Any rationale for this?

Cheers,

Laurens

[tkdco2]

I think B/X decided to have the classes begin domain play (the so-called "name level") at level 9. Halflings were the exception as they maxed out at level 8. Likewise, magic-users became wizards at level 9 instead of level 11 in B/X.

[jeffb]

As this was the first attempt at a ODD clone game, there was a real concern of legal repercussions.

So Matt changed a bunch of numbers around on tables and Charts.

[waysoftheearth]

Welcome Wanderer Bill

It's true that the AD&D cleric continues to attain the title "Patriarch" at 8th level (albeit 110,000 rather than 100,000 XP).
However, the title "High Priest" is then achieved at 9th level (and 225,000 XP), and for each level thereafter the AD&D cleric requires another 225,000 XP.

Interestingly, while the AD&D Patriarch can attract religious followers and an army, only the High Priest can tax the local inhabitants.
So the AD&D cleric's top-level benefits are gained across these two levels.

As for Delving Deeper, pretty much what jeffb said. I vaguely recall a bunch of discussions (on these boards and elsewhere) re the OD&D cleric achieving top level too quickly compared to the other classes. That, coupled with the perceived need to include differences, is what pushed the DD (v1-v4) cleric top level out to 9th. FWIW, in v5 it reverts back to 8th.

[Wanderer Bill]

Hey, thanks all!

All you said seems to make a lot of sense.

Of course it's easy to houserule clerics name level back to 8th in S&W as well. I think it's quite important for a campaign game, since it shapes the early domain game in a particular way which to my mind fits the Swords & Sorcery genre quite nicely.

Early domain game, dominated by clerics, as mundane fighters get more wealthy they might take over. Finally mighty wizards take over, competing at magical research and finally transcend the campaign world and reach for the stars

Cheers!