Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D

[parmstrong]

Has anyone imported the spell complexity and/or counter spell rules from Chainmail into OD&D? If so, how did it work for you?

[snorri]

Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.

[chgowiz]

Dec 3, 2008 16:59:33 GMT -6 snorri said:

Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.

I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?

(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)

[jcstephens]

I haven't actually tried this, but I've been pondering it to give magic-users something to do in combat (since I enforce the 'nothing but daggers' rule). My concept is that magic-users can turn spells the same way clerics turn undead. They have to declare it as their combat action at the beginning of the round, and if an enemy casts a spell during that round they roll to counter it. I still haven't decided whether it should be one spell or all spells cast get countered, though.

[snorri]

Dec 11, 2008 11:11:50 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

Dec 3, 2008 16:59:33 GMT -6 snorri said:

Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.

I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?

(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)

It's still a work in progress for the french adapation / clone of od&d / chainmail. So firts tests are still at their begining. I don't use alternative system (with a d20 for fight and saves), but the 2D6 system from chainmail, with some simplification on the man-to-man fighting.

The spell is cast, even is cancelled by another mage - it seems me fit with the idea of counterspell .

[chgowiz]

Dec 11, 2008 16:14:38 GMT -6 snorri said:

Dec 11, 2008 11:11:50 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?

(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)

It's still a work in progress for the french adapation / clone of od&d / chainmail. So firts tests are still at their begining. I don't use alternative system (with a d20 for fight and saves), but the 2D6 system from chainmail, with some simplification on the man-to-man fighting.

The spell is cast, even is cancelled by another mage - it seems me fit with the idea of counterspell .

No, it makes sense. I'm going to have to ponder how that might work in a non-Chainmail combat sense, but that's another topic not germaine to this thread. Thank you for explaining it!

[Deleted]

I've been playing around with the Chainmail counter-spell system, here is a beta version. Please let me know what you think.

Compare the levels of the 2 magic-users, the stronger magician can successfully cast a counter-spell with a two dice score of 7 or better, while a weaker magician needs a higher score as shown below. A counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers. A successfully countered spell is lost from memory, and note that engaging in a counter-spell "duel" negates any further spell use by both participants for the remainder of that round.

Magic-User is:
1 level lower: 8 or better
2 levels lower: 9 or better
3-4 levels lower: 10 or better
5-6 levels lower: 11 or better
7 or more levels lower: 12

Results:

Both sides must roll a Save versus Spells.

If the dispelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed from his or her memorized spells in the following order of preference. (1) a spell of the same level as the countered spell, (2) a spell of one level higher than the countered spell, and (3) a spell of one level lower than the countered spell. In any of the 3 cases, the "forgotten" spell is determined randomly by the referee. A successful save indicates no adverse effects for that character, though he or she will still be unable to cast a spell until the next round.

If the loser fails the save, consult the table below. A successful save versus spells indicates that, besides losing the countered spell from memory, he or she suffers no further ill effects.

1d6 Result
1. Confusion 1d4+1 rounds
2. Unconscious 1d4+1 rounds
3. 1d4+1 points damage
4. Charmed
5. Forget all spells
6. Feeblemind

[chgowiz]

@dubeers - that's pretty cool - have you playtested this?

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2008 20:53:04 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

@dubeers - that's pretty cool - have you playtested this?

No. It is something that's been percolating in the back of my mind, as a preliminary to reorganizing my OD&D campaign from way back in late 1970's. I really appreciate the feedback. If you use, let me know if it works. The act of actually typing it all out has given me some additional ideas, I'll try and post them in the next day or two.

[Deleted]

Here are the odds on spell countering, btw:

On 2d6
7 or more: 58.33% (7/12)
8 or more: 41.67% (5/12)
9 or more: 27.78% (5/18)
10 or more: 16.67% (1/6)
11 or more: 8.33% (1/12)
12: 2.78% (1/36)

[coffee]

Dubeers, you've done some mighty fine work here! I don't know if I'll ever use it, but I'd like to!

Have an exalt for this.

[Deleted]

Okay, I've cleaned up the presentation and listed some possible variants to allow a referee to customize this optional rule to his or her liking.

Counter-Spell

A magic-user may use his or her arcane knowledge to attempt to neutralize an opponent's spell. This is referred to a counter-spell or spell duel. To engage in a duel a magic-user must be able to see the attacking magic-user and he or she must have at least one magic spell, of any type and level, memorized. Cleric spells cannot be countered. Any condition which would prevent a magic-user from casting a spell would likewise prevent the countering of a spell by that magic-user.

Resolving a Spell Duel

Compare the levels of the countering magic-users with the spell-casting magic-user; then consult the table below. Attempting a counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers. A successfully countered spell is lost from memory. Note that engaging in a counter-spell duel negates any further spell use by both participants for the remainder of that round.

Magic-User is:

Equal or higher level:	7 or better
1 level lower:	8 or better
2 levels lower:	9 or better
3-4 levels lower:	10 or better
5-6 levels lower:	11 or better
7 or more levels lower:	12

After the counter spell attempt is resolved, both combatants must roll a Saving Throw versus Spells.

If the dispelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed from his or her memorized spells in the following order of preference. (1) a spell of the same level as the countered spell, (2) a spell of one level higher than the countered spell, and (3) a spell of one level lower than the countered spell. In any of the 3 cases, the "forgotten" spell is determined randomly by the referee. A successful save indicates no adverse effects for that character, though he or she will still be unable to cast a spell until the next round.

If the attacking magic-user fails his or her save, consult the table below. A successful save versus spells indicates no additional negative results besides losing the countered spell from memory.

1d6 Result

1.	Confusion (1d4 round)
2.	Unconscious 1d4+1 rounds
3.	1d4+1 points damage
4.	Charmed
5.	Forget all spells
6.	Feeblemind

Possible Variants:

• Allow magic-user to counter illusionist spells and vice versa; and allow a cleric to counter another cleric's spells.
  
• Reduce difficulty for countering for magic-users of higher relative level than the spell-caster.
  
• Disallow countering of certain spells, or high level spells.
  
• Limit Counter-Spells to a specificially memorized "Counter Spell" specific to level. (ex: a third level "Counter-Spell III" takes up a spell slot, may only counter spells of level 3 or less and, once cast is gone from memory).

[chgowiz]

Dec 26, 2008 21:59:46 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Dec 26, 2008 20:53:04 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

@dubeers - that's pretty cool - have you playtested this?

No. It is something that's been percolating in the back of my mind, as a preliminary to reorganizing my OD&D campaign from way back in late 1970's. I really appreciate the feedback. If you use, let me know if it works. The act of actually typing it all out has given me some additional ideas, I'll try and post them in the next day or two.

Very cool - I can't wait to see those additional items. I remember very fondly the scene from the 1984 Conan the Destroyer movie where the evil priest and the mage were in a duel to open/shut the door. That always sparked my curiousity why (at the time 1E/Holmes) D&D never had that type of mage spell/counterspell. I never tried to make my own rules.

I will add this to my list of amassed house rules. Right now, the only "true" OD&D game is my wife's solo game and she's a fighter. I do play an NPC mage, so we'll see, I like saving the "cool" stuff for my PCs to do.

I am running a 1E/OSRIC game in January, I may "port" this over and ask for comments.

Edited to add: I just saw your addendum. Very cool!

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2008 9:18:20 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

I remember very fondly the scene from the 1984 Conan the Destroyer movie where the evil priest and the mage were in a duel to open/shut the door. That always sparked my curiousity why (at the time 1E/Holmes) D&D never had that type of mage spell/counterspell. I never tried to make my own rules.

Yeah, that scene was in the back of my mind, too. The basic Chainmail guidelines seemed a good fit for the alternate combat system and doesn't tinker too much with the Vancian feel of the OD&D magic system.

Edited to add: I just saw your addendum. Very cool!

Thanks! I'm still thinking it over. I also just got some feedback from another user on K&KA which I will post here; along with further thoughts on countering spells.

[Deleted]

Some suggestions from a different board:

If the spell countered is one memorized by the countering spell caster, that spell is forgotten ... Not a bad suggestion. I've tried to keep the rules simple but this adds an interesting facet to countering a spell. A referee may even wish to add a bonus to the countering magic-user's chances for successfully neutralizing the spell in such a case.

...Otherwise, one spell of equivalent level or higher is forgotten, chosen by the referee (possibly at random). I considered a "hard" penalty for countering spell. I decided against it, most because Chainmail implies a lack of penalty for countering. I personally find the saving throw more appealing but some of you may find this idea useful.

Thus, if the spell caster knows he's going to have to counter a specific spell, he can prepare for it by memorizing that spell. But if the countering is impromptu, the cost will be higher: the loss of a random spell. Great idea. This variant will probably reduce the number of counter-spells attempted in your campaign, which may suit your style of refereeing.

Overall, I tried to keep within the spirit of OD&D's rules: clean, simple, fast. How simple is too simple, or how much complexity is too much is subjective. I've therefore included the suggestions here; they are fine ideas and may be of use to some of you.

[chgowiz]

Dec 27, 2008 9:53:35 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Some suggestions from a different board:

If the spell countered is one memorized by the countering spell caster, that spell is forgotten ... Not a bad suggestion. I've tried to keep the rules simple but this adds an interesting facet to countering a spell. A referee may even wish to add a bonus to the countering magic-user's chances for successfully neutralizing the spell in such a case.

...Otherwise, one spell of equivalent level or higher is forgotten, chosen by the referee (possibly at random). I considered a "hard" penalty for countering spell. I decided against it, most because Chainmail implies a lack of penalty for countering. I personally find the saving throw more appealing but some of you may find this idea useful.

Thus, if the spell caster knows he's going to have to counter a specific spell, he can prepare for it by memorizing that spell. But if the countering is impromptu, the cost will be higher: the loss of a random spell. Great idea. This variant will probably reduce the number of counter-spells attempted in your campaign, which may suit your style of refereeing.

Overall, I tried to keep within the spirit of OD&D's rules: clean, simple, fast. How simple is too simple, or how much complexity is too much is subjective. I've therefore included the suggestions here; they are fine ideas and may be of use to some of you.

These are really interesting variants, especially, I think, for magic heavy campaigns.

For my campaign, I like the "no penalty" approach to countering spells. It gives the mage something to do and introduces an aspect of "combat" that would be cool for someone playing. I don't think that a human mage is going to think like a kobold shaman, or goblin witchdoctor (ie., have the same spell memorized, or even understand it in the same way), but if they both are MUs, they can use their magical powers to combat each other. Some risk in failing a saving throw, but it gives the ability to really have some cool things happen.

And imagine the look on the PCs faces when the NPCs start throwing counters. THAT will encourage a "hit the spell thrower first!" approach! Talk about some neat encounters!

At least, that's how I feel, we'll see how it goes when I get to gaming it.

Have an exalt for the fantastic rules option.

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2008 13:29:38 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

Have an exalt for the fantastic rules option.

Ditto. Dubeers, this has got to be the best counterspell rule I've seen--including my own, which I'm promptly ditching in favor of yours.

This is going to be a great addition to my new "low-magic" campaign. Your counterspell system really adds a punch that both players & DM's will love.

Great Work!!! ;D

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2008 13:29:38 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

At least, that's how I feel, we'll see how it goes when I get to gaming it.

Have an exalt for the fantastic rules option.

Thanks! And let me know how this rule works out for you.

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2008 14:17:45 GMT -6 @oltekos said:

This is going to be a great addition to my new "low-magic" campaign. Your counterspell system really adds a punch that both players & DM's will love.

Great Work!!! ;D

Thank you very much. I hope you find it useful in your campaign. Let me know how it plays at the table.

[Deleted]

Okay, I've received some additional feedback on Spell-Countering on a different board. That gamer suggested the following:

I'd still allow a magic.user with no spells to try. But maybe have them automatically fail their save if they lose and still need to make a save even if they win. I seriously considered this option when typing up my initial treatment, but eventually discarded it. I figure counter-spelling works with the arcane energies stored by the memorization process. A M-U with no spells would therefore have no energies with which to work a countering magick. DMs wishing to use this option will have to work up a list of consequences for a failed save.


Also how about making one of the negative effects on your table related to the spell countered?

So a MU casts fireball, it's countered and the MU fails his save - on a roll of 6 he'll fry under his own spell (ie he takes damage as per fireball, but no explosion as the fire is directed inwards). It would throw up some interesting situations where someone counter Tenser's Floating Disk - what's the worst thing that could happen with a Floating Disk? I've liked all the suggestions I've received, but I like this one enough to add it to my particular version of Counter-Spelling. This also lends itself to the failed saving throw mentioned in the first suggestion, listed above.

Enjoy! As always, further comments and suggestions are welcome.

[Deleted]

Okay, here an additional aspect of this problem I failed to consider. The saving throw system is apparently an abstraction of the Chainmail spell countering, and this is one reason a magic-user's save versus spells is so good.

While this seems a good conclusion, I would also point out this would do nothing to prevent a fireball from effecting the rest of the party. Also: many saves only allow for half-damage rather than the cancellation of the spell.

At any rate, I wanted to mention it here so you could consider this house rule from every angle.

[chgowiz]

@dubeers

I playtested this a tiny bit last night. My wife was otherwise occupied with a monster fighter and having a fun combat with him while the monster MU was getting away. She told my NPC mage to go after him. This monster MU had shut a door behind him and was in the process of wizard locking it, so I gave the counterspell rule a quick attempt.

My NPC MU failed to counter the spell, at which point I realized that I completely misinterpreted what you had laid out in the rule.

The way it reads right now:


Results:

Both sides must roll a Save versus Spells.

If the dispelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed ...

If the loser fails the save, consult the table below...

I thought it meant that only the loser of the duel has make the saving throw - and only if the countering MU fails they lose the spell, and only if the caster fails, they consult the chart.

What I should have realized is that the first applies only to the countering MU and the second applies to the loser of the duel. There's the possibility of a double whammy on the countering MU - losing a spell AND further consequences if they lost the match and failed the ST.

I thought about it a bit and I think I'm going to rewrite it as follows for my houserules and give it a whirl:

Results:

If the counterspelling magic-user succeeds in his attempts (makes the roll), the original caster "loses" the spell as if he/she had cast it and must make a saving throw versus spells.

If the counterspelling magic-user fails in his attempt to counter the spell, the original caster successfully casts their spell. The counterspelling magic user must make a saving throw versus spells.

In either situation, if the save is unsuccessful, consult the table below:

1d6 Result (+1 to result if casting MU's level is 3 or more higher than countering MU)

1. Confusion 1d4+1 rounds
2. Unconscious 1d4+1 rounds
3. 1d4+1 points damage
4. Forget one spell (randomly chosen by DM)
5. Forget all spells
6 (or 7). Feeblemind (equivalent of 3 INT until next rest, all spells forgotten)

The reasoning behind this is to make a simpler consequence (and easier to explain) It also makes it so that the loss of a spell isn't automatic, but is a possible consequence. I don't know statistics well enough to calculate the odds in losing one or all spells, but it's there IF you lose and IF you fail a saving throw and IF you roll a 4-6 on the consequence.

That would fit into what "I saw" when my NPC mage lost the duel.

What do you think?

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2008 8:29:45 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

I playtested this a tiny bit last night.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, when I typed that post I left out a word which would made the sequence clearer. Here's how I imagine it working:

Let's call the magic-user casting a fireball spell the attacking magic-user; the one attempting to counter-spell the fireball the countering magic-user.

The dispelling magic-user has 3 possible outcomes.

• He successfully counters the attacker's fireball.
  
• He fails to counter the attacker's fireball, but makes his saving throw and suffers no penalty (besides any inflicted by the attacker's successful fireball!).
  
• He fails to counter the attacker's fireball and fails his saving throw, losing a spell from memory (as detailed in my original post).
  

The attacking magic-user has possible outcomes.

• He successfully casts the fireball.
  
• His fireball is countered but he makes his save and, besides losing the fireball spell from memory, suffers no further ill effects.
  
• His fireball is countered and he fails his save, suffering a variety of ill effects in addition to losing the fireball spell from memory.

My original post states both sides should roll a saving throw, but what I had in mind was only throwing a saving throw as outlined above, that is, in the case of failure.

[Deleted]

REVISED VERSION


Counter-Spell

A magic-user may use his or her arcane knowledge to attempt to neutralize an opponent's spell. This is referred to as a counter-spell or spell duel. To engage in a duel a magic-user must be able to see the attacking magic-user and he or she must have at least one magic spell, of any type and level, memorized. Cleric spells cannot be countered. Any condition which would prevent a magic-user from casting a spell would likewise prevent the countering of a spell by that magic-user.

Resolving a Spell Duel

Compare the level of the countering magic-user with the attacking magic-user then consult the table below. The attacking spell-caster rolls 2d6 and if he or she beats the target number the spell is successfully cast; otherwise the spell is considered to be countered and is lost from memory just as if it had been cast.

Magic-User is:

Equal or higher level:	7 or better
1 level lower:	8 or better
2 levels lower:	9 or better
3-4 levels lower:	10 or better
5-6 levels lower:	11 or better
7 or more levels lower:	12

The loser of the duel must roll a saving throw versus magic.

If the counter-spelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed from his or her memorized spells in the following order of preference. (1) a spell of the same level as the countered spell, (2) a spell of one level higher than the countered spell, (3) a spell of one level lower than the countered spell, or, (4) a randomly determined spell. In any of the 4 cases, the "forgotten" spell is determined randomly by the referee. A successful save indicates no adverse effects for that character, though he or she will still be unable to cast a spell until the next round.

If the attacking magic-user fails his or her save, consult the table below. A successful save versus spells indicates no additional negative results besides losing the countered spell from memory.

2d6 Result

2	Unconscious 1d4+1 rounds
3	Damage 1d4+1 hit points
4	Charmed
5-7	Confusion 1d4+1 rounds
8-10	Suffer effects related to attempted spell*
11	Forget all spells
12	Feeblemind

*to be determined by referee, , results should be flashy and dramatic but damage should not be too severe; otherwise the magic-user becomes too penalized by this rules variant

Attempting a counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers. A successfully countered spell is lost from memory. Note that engaging in a counter-spell duel negates any further spell use by both participants for the remainder of that round.

Possible Variants: (only the first 4 were written by me, the others are from various contributors on the web)

• Allow magic-user to counter illusionist spells and vice versa; and allow a cleric to counter another cleric's spells.
  
• Reduce difficulty for countering for magic-users of higher relative level than the spell-caster.
  
• Disallow countering of certain spells, or high level spells.
  
• Limit Counter-Spells to a specificially memorized "Counter Spell" specific to level. (ex: a third level "Counter-Spell III" takes up a spell slot, may only counter spells of level 3 or less and, once cast is gone from memory).
  
• If the spell countered is one memorized by the countering spell caster, that spell is forgotten, otherwise, one spell of equivalent level or higher is forgotten, chosen by the referee (possibly at random).
  
• Thus, if the spell caster knows he's going to have to counter a specific spell, he can prepare for it by memorizing that spell. But if the countering is impromptu, the cost will be higher: the loss of a random spell.
  
• Allow a magic-user with no spells to try but have them automatically fail their save if they lose and still need to make a save even if they win.
  
• How about making one of the negative effects on your table related to the spell countered? (added)

[Deleted]

After some thought, even though T. Foster (over on the K&KA message boards) raises a good point about the saving throw being an abstract from of spell countering, I've made the decision to continue to include this carry-over from Chainmail. I like it and feels it adds an individual flavour to my campaign.

I will continue to tinker with the rules and post results here if I make any major revisions. Thank you all for your input and support.

[chgowiz]

Dec 30, 2008 10:21:20 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I will continue to tinker with the rules and post results here if I make any major revisions. Thank you all for your input and support.

You're welcome! I've enjoyed the discussion, even the segue into what a Saving Throw stands for.