Should all incorporeal creatures be immune to polymorphing?

[delta]

The 2E and 3E rules adds text to the polymorph other spell that incorporeal creatures are not subject to that spell. Would you rule the same way?

(Note the universal quantification. If you think some incorporeal creatures can be subject to polymorph other, but others can't, then you should select "no".)

[Desparil]

Mar 24, 2023 11:45:14 GMT -6 delta said:

The 2E and 3E rules adds text to the polymorph other spell that incorporeal creatures are not subject to that spell. Would you rule the same way?

(Note the universal quantification. If you think some incorporeal creatures can be subject to polymorph other, but others can't, then you should select "no".)

I would make a correction here - in 2E, it specifies that noncorporeal forms cannot be assumed, but no statement is made about naturally noncorporeal creatures being immune to the spell. Additionally, no mention is made in the Monstrous Compendium entry of any noncorporeal monster that I'm aware of, and they tend to be pretty thorough. The wraith, for example:

Wraiths are immune to normal weapons. An attack with such a weapon merely passes through its body with no effect. Silver weapons cause only half normal damage. Magical weapons inflict their full damage, causing a black vapor to boil away from the body of the wraith. A wraith slowly regains its full hit points if left alone for at least a week (recovering one point every eight hours). Like most undead, wraiths are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death and cold-based spells. They are immune to poison and paralyzation. A vial of holy water causes 2-8 points of damage (as acid) upon striking the body of a wraith. A raise dead spell will utterly destroy one if a saving throw vs. spell is failed.

[talysman]

I had no idea 2e or 3e banned polymorphing incorporeal creatures, but personally I can't see the reasoning behind it. If the ability to become incorporeal is a mental or learned magical power, I can see arguing that the creature would still be able to become incorporeal, although it would be an incorporeal version of whatever they were polymorphed into.

I suppose someone got the idea that since were creatures or other natural shapeshifters would only be polymorphed for a few rounds at most, any monster that changed form in some way should be immune to polymorph. But I see incorporeality as a state rather than a form, so I wouldn't count it as being shapeshifting.

[dicebro]

Let’s see. We got solids. Gases. Liquids. Plasma. Am I missing anything?

[talysman]

Mar 24, 2023 12:59:11 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Let’s see. We got solids. Gases. Liquids. Plasma. Am I missing anything?

Fantasy states, like ethereal and astral. Incorporeal creatures are usually considered gaseous, ethereal, or astral.

Remember, the people in the 19th and early 20th centuries who coined the term "ethereal" really believed it was a state of matter, just like the others.

[Mordorandor]

Mar 24, 2023 13:32:55 GMT -6 talysman said:

Mar 24, 2023 12:59:11 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Let’s see. We got solids. Gases. Liquids. Plasma. Am I missing anything?

Fantasy states, like ethereal and astral. Incorporeal creatures are usually considered gaseous, ethereal, or astral.

Remember, the people in the 19th and early 20th centuries who coined the term "ethereal" really believed it was a state of matter, just like the others.

Let’s not forget creatures made of phlogiston.

[Mordorandor]

On a more serious note.

“Polymorph Others: Unlike the spell to Polymorph Self, this spell lasts until it is dispelled. The spell gives all characteristics of the form of the creature, so a creature polymorphed into a dragon acquires all of the dragon's ability — not necessarily mentality, however. Likewise, a troll polymorphed into a snail would have innate resistance to being stepped on and crushed by a normal man. Range: 6".”

There are the platonic forms, so I imagine the word form here could mean that any creature type is subject to this spell.

[delta]

Mar 24, 2023 11:52:11 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would make a correction here - in 2E, it specifies that noncorporeal forms cannot be assumed, but no statement is made about naturally noncorporeal creatures being immune to the spell. Additionally, no mention is made in the Monstrous Compendium entry of any noncorporeal monster that I'm aware of, and they tend to be pretty thorough...

You're right about the spell text, of course -- I was trying to summarize the evolution without getting too far into the details.

My documents show "noncorporeal" as indicated in 2E for Ghosts (MC1) [same as in 1E], and also Groaning Spirits/Banshees (MC2). Duplicated in 2E Monstrous Manual.

[Desparil]

Mar 24, 2023 14:53:47 GMT -6 delta said:

Mar 24, 2023 11:52:11 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would make a correction here - in 2E, it specifies that noncorporeal forms cannot be assumed, but no statement is made about naturally noncorporeal creatures being immune to the spell. Additionally, no mention is made in the Monstrous Compendium entry of any noncorporeal monster that I'm aware of, and they tend to be pretty thorough...

You're right about the spell text, of course -- I was trying to summarize the evolution without getting too far into the details.

My documents show "noncorporeal" as indicated in 2E for Ghosts (MC1) [same as in 1E], and also Groaning Spirits/Banshees (MC2). Duplicated in 2E Monstrous Manual.

Sorry, I seem to have not finished my sentence. What I intended to write was that no mention is made of immunity to polymorph in those creatures' entries - hence the example text from the wraith's entry.

[dicebro]

Can you polymorph a fire elemental into a waterweird?

[delta]

Mar 24, 2023 18:23:22 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Can you polymorph a fire elemental into a waterweird?

That's part of what I'm wondering, too.

[Mordorandor]

Mar 24, 2023 18:23:22 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Can you polymorph a fire elemental into a waterweird?

Perhaps this is where we are encouraged to untether ourselves from our tendencies to reason into an otherwise rationale answer while living in a fantastical world.

A long-winded way of saying that the description of the effect is likely asking us to get beyond (or around) our tendency to take the word "polymorph" and its etymology rooted in "multiple shapes/forms," with a grain of salt.

Not that I have ever run into this issue, mind you.

[hamurai]

I voted No.
If one wanted to apply a reason to this, one could argue that some of the incorporeal creatures (those without a stable form) would be immune, because if their form is unstable, it might not hold the effect of a Polymorph for long.

Personally, I'd say that magic trumps the other abilities (I can't think of a creature where I might rule otherwise right now). The spell will therefore force any creature into the specified form and even force them to become corporeal.

[dicebro]

Mar 24, 2023 19:38:22 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Mar 24, 2023 18:23:22 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Can you polymorph a fire elemental into a waterweird?

Perhaps this is where we are encouraged to untether ourselves from our tendencies to reason into an otherwise rationale answer while living in a fantastical world.

A long-winded way of saying that the description of the effect is likely asking us to get beyond (or around) our tendency to take the word "polymorph" and its etymology rooted in "multiple shapes/forms," with a grain of salt.

Not that I have ever run into this issue, mind you.

I agree, because Original Dungeons and Dragons functions as a game wherein the referee is permitted to engage in the act of “make believe”.

[dicebro]

Mar 24, 2023 18:59:47 GMT -6 delta said:

Mar 24, 2023 18:23:22 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Can you polymorph a fire elemental into a waterweird?

That's part of what I'm wondering, too.

I don’t see why not. It’s magic. Magic doesn’t follow the laws of physics, it bends them.  

Perhaps the magic user could research a higher level spell called “Polymorph Plus”?