Alternatives to "Vancian" magic?

[Finarvyn]

I've been reading some threads on another board that were negative towards the "fire and forget" style of D&D's Vancian magic. I'm not sure if it's the number of spell slots or the choice in advance, or what bothers them the most. I probably should ask them, but it's not always a friendly board and I'm not interested in sparring with folks who don't play nice. I don't want to get into a flame war on those boards but I thought it would be interesting to pick the collective brains here to see what variants are used or if others have come up with totally different for spellcasting.

I'm doing this at work and off the top of my head but here are a few I have experimented with over the years:

(1) Chainmail has a system where you roll 2d6 to make a spell go off, with the roll modified by spell level. The results can be immediate, delayed, or no effect. Characters get a total number of spells based on their level, but I don't think it has any restriction on spell levels chosen. (E.g. you could cast your best spell over and over.) I can't recall offhand any saving throw allowed.

(2) OD&D and pretty much any other D&D variant has a "tree" of spells to be chosen from -- how many of spell level 1, of spell level 2, of spell level 3, and so on. This is based on character level. Spells typically do damage or the defender gets to save.

(3) I tried several spell point systems, often with different numbers of points per spell level. My favorite was to track the total number of spells, the maximum spell level which can be cast, and the total sum of spell levels which can be cast. As long as a magic-user doesn't violate any of those three numbers, he can free-cast any spells.

(4) MERP (and possibly other RuneQuest style games) has a limited number of spell categories and each caster is rated in every category as to how much effect he can get in the casting. I don't recall a lot about this, but I think each category was treated like a skill and could be improved with experience, so one could customize which spells a character is good at casting.

(5) The old SAGA system for Dragonlance had a number of charts where you could customize a spell by choosing its speed of casting, area of effect, lethality of damage, and so on. Powerful spells had a high cost. I can't recall offhand how many spells a caster could do, but I think SAGA had a conversion guide with AD&D so there was probably some equivalence.

(6) DCC uses a spell roll where a greater roll results in greater effects, but otherwise is a lot like D&D. There is no set number of spells to be cast, but failure has consequences and that is supposed to balance the system out.

(7) 5E has something like regular D&D in style, but some spells can be "overcast" at a higher level for greater effect.

I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones. Tell me about them.

[stevemitchell]

Back in the day--way back in the day--my gaming group decided to give OD&D a try. All the folks in the group were fantasy readers, and we recognized the derivation of the magic system from Vance. But--we wanted to play something more like Middle Earth, or the Hyborian Age, or the Young Kingdoms, not the Dying Earth. So, we grabbed the magic system from Tunnels & Trolls and used that instead. The wizard pays a certain amount of Strength Points to cast each spell, and when he's down to 0, he has to wait and rest up before he can do more. This did make Magic-Users more powerful at the early levels, but that didn't bother us. We just restricted the number of Magic-Users in play. Maybe this was all rank heresy, to Arneson & Gygax as well as to St. Andre, but we were having fun.

[talysman]

When I first learned OD&D, it was actually houseruled to add spell points. I had no idea at the time that this wasn't the standard system. The spell points were called "magical conductivity" and increased with level. The spells were still separated by level in the usual way, but each spell level had a die roll for how much magical conductivity that spell drained from the caster. It was something like 1d4/2 for level 1, 1d6/2 for level 2, 1d4 for level 3, 1d6 for level 4, 2d4 for level 5, up to level 9 (I didn't know it at the time, but I later recognized this list included all the spells from Greyhawk.)

I like the Microlite 20 or TFT approach to making spell points identical to hit points, but allowing points lost from spell casting to be recovered in minutes instead of days. I think a good way to implement this in OD&D is to combine it with a modified version of that spell point system above and the concept of spell skill rolls from Chainmail: caster rolls 1d6 per spell level and loses 1 temporary point from hp for every 6 rolled on the dice.

But I remember seeing some other system somewhere that used exhaustion states (as described in AD&D's Survival Guides) instead of spell points. Don't recall the details, but here's a quick hack of that spell-point system to do something similar: caster rolls 1d6 per spell level. If any of the dice rolled is less than or equal to the spell level, the spell caster is exhausted and rolls twice as many dice when casting spells from then on. If an already-exhausted caster is exhausted a second time, they lose the ability to cast spells of that level or higher. Resting one full turn per spell level restores the ability to cast spells of that spell level.

[Vile Traveller]

I would love to know what spell point system Holmes was thinking of when he suggested it to Gygax.

[hamurai]

Dungeon World lets the player cast freely, but they have to make a roll. If I remember correctly, on an unsuccessful roll, they can choose if the spell takes effect or they forget the spell. I've seen a similar idea in some OSR game.

[tombowings]

There's the DragonQuest system, where each spell is its own sperate skills, with its own chance of success. Therefore, a character with have:

Spell of Invisibility (Rank 6): 63% Cast Chance
Spell of Enchanting Weapons (Rank 1): 33% Cast Chance

Each spell has its own base chance to cast (45% for the Spell of Invisibility, 30% for the Spell of Enchanting Weapons). Each rank adds +3% to the success chance. Casting a basic knowledge spell requires the character to expend 1 fatigue (think HP), or 2 fatigue for special knowledge spells.

[Punkrabbitt]

I seem to remember using mana pools or something like that. It was like 35 years ago and my notes are long gone.

[thegreyelf]

The magic system in Spellcraft & Swordplay was evolved from the Chainmail 2d6 table, and for many years has proved quite serviceable in my Age of Conan games - it's also in my Age of Conan PDF on my grey-elf.com website. In Night Shift: VSW, I extrapolated that idea into a percentage-based system where by spellcasters have a percentage chance to cast a spell, modified by the spell level, and must roll under to cast. Failure can result in consequences that range from simple failure to catastrophic (with higher level spells granting a higher chance for horrid consequences of failure).

MANY years ago, I contrived a mana-based spell-point system for AD&D 2e, which then became the system used in Amazing Adventures.

All three systems have been thoroughly playtested and work well.

[blackwyvern]

When I run Solomon Kane style, casting spells can corrupt the soul (other than a few white magic spells which can't cause corruption). I use the spell complexity table from Chain Mail, combined with Greyhawk/Holmes' Intelligence and spell book rules. Failed rolls cause the character to roll a save vs magic or add a point of corruption and roll on the physical manifestations table and treat all spells as if they were one level higher on the complexity table until they rest. Illusionists don't have to worry about corruption, they just loose the ability to cast that level of spells until they rest. Players can perform quests for the Lawful church to remove points of corruption but the physical manifestations stay. Once a character reaches his Wisdom in corruption points they become an NPC. Physical manifestations are things like boils, twisted limb, vestigial wings or horns, cat's eyes, carrion body odor... Illusionist are very popular spell casters in the 16th Century. Also cleric spells are lumped in with the magic-user's spell list, there are no clerics.

[Hawklord]

Mar 17, 2023 18:20:06 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I would love to know what spell point system Holmes was thinking of when he suggested it to Gygax.

Holmes first learned to play D&D "without playing D&D" using the Warlock game system, as published in Spartan issue #9.

Zenopus' rundown on the Warlock spell point system: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-warlock-od-spell-point-system.html

[Vile Traveller]

Mar 29, 2023 17:13:57 GMT -6 Hawklord said:

Holmes first learned to play D&D "without playing D&D" using the Warlock game system, as published in Spartan issue #9.

Yes, I know about Holmes and Warlock, I've done a little research into the matter.

To clarify, I was thinking more of whether he had any further-developed ideas for Basic D&D when he proposed spell points to Gygax. You may be right, though, perhaps he was just thinking of straight-up converting the D&D spells to the Warlock system.

[robertsconley]

In shadow dark you memorize spells but you have to make a spellcasting check. If you fail the spell doesn't go off and you lose the ability to cast that spell for the day. If you succeed however you can cast that spell again. The difficulty of the roll is based on the spell level and the intelligence (or wisdom) bonus of the caster.

The spells list of Shadowdark as been tweaked as well. It is nothing major but there are small changes to the effects to account for the effect that casting the same spell multiple times is possible.

[rhialto]

Mar 30, 2023 11:12:07 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

In shadow dark you memorize spells but you have to make a spellcasting check. If you fail the spell doesn't go off and you lose the ability to cast that spell for the day. If you succeed however you can cast that spell again. The difficulty of the roll is based on the spell level and the intelligence (or wisdom) bonus of the caster.

The spells list of Shadowdark as been tweaked as well. It is nothing major but there are small changes to the effects to account for the effect that casting the same spell multiple times is possible.

Since it has it's own board here: Spellcraft & Swordplay does this too, but with its usual 2d6, not a d20.

The only variant I haven't seen mentioned is from Maelstrom: free-form magic (no spells), with roll-to-cast based on how "unreal" a magical effect is: probable (cause someone to trip while running)->unlikely->highly unlikely->wildly improbable->impossible (speak with dead, teleport, etc.). I think this is similar to Barbarians of Lemuria or Jaws of the Six Serpents: freeform, roll to cast.

[aj]

In a convention I recently hosted a game at I used a rule where magic-users can get their spells back after a rest in the dungeon. It made the player happier to cast more spells instead of having to save them up for the whole session.
However, as a trade off I made it so that an encounter check die was rolled per level of the spell cast, while suitably explaining the noise that casting such powerful spells makes (the bigger the spell, the bigger the boom!)
After a while the table caught on and when ever a spell was cast it was done so with extreme caution.

[tombowings]

Apr 9, 2023 7:01:13 GMT -6 aj said:

In a convention I recently hosted a game at I used a rule where magic-users can get their spells back after a rest in the dungeon. It made the player happier to cast more spells instead of having to save them up for the whole session.
However, as a trade off I made it so that an encounter check die was rolled per level of the spell cast, while suitably explaining the noise that casting such powerful spells makes (the bigger the spell, the bigger the boom!)
After a while the table caught on and when ever a spell was cast it was done so with extreme caution.

Interesting.

I wonder if it would work even without the rest requirement.

[Finarvyn]

I'm not sure it contributes to the discussion, but I found it funny.

D&D magic has been described as "Vancian" because fire-and-forget is the style written about by Jack Vance in the Dying Earth books. DCC RPG is a D&D variant, but drops the fire-and-forget method as wizards can burn luck and stats in order to cast spells and this provides a different way to limit magic. Do a poster on FB wanted to know if DCC Dying Earth used "Vancian" magic rules.

My thought was, "That is an awesome question in so many ways!"

Turns out that the answer is; Yes, of course DCC Dying Earth chose to use fire-and-forget instead of the usual DCC rules because that's the way Jack Vance did it.

[aldarron]

After experimenting with a few different things pre-D&D, Arneson more or less settled on a chance based method involving levels. Like a second level caster had maybe a 50% chance to cast a second level spell - there being 4 levels of spells altogether. If you failed you suffered exhuastion. wrote about it in this post link

[jamesmishler]

I've most often used a mixed system for as long as I can remember.

A spellcaster gets the listed number of spell slots to memorize spells AND the same number of spell slots to cast those memorized spells in any combination desired.

It is kind of like 5E, but instead of a single number of spells that can be memorized of whatever level known (Level + Ability bonus), it is a number of spell memorization slots by spell level.

The spellcaster can also use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell but does not gain any benefit thereby.

Thus, a magic-user that has two 1st level slots and two 2nd level slots can memorize two spells of each level. They can then cast two 1st level spells and two 2nd level spells or can use 2nd level spell slots to cast 1st level spells.

I usually use a modified version of the AD&D spell bonus table by Wisdom for clerics and by Intelligence for magic-users.

I find that the spellcasters must still think tactically for memorization but can still have a bit of leeway on what they cast.

It also helps to enable spellcasters to memorize those utilitarian spells that otherwise get lost in the mad dash for combat spells.

Finally, I also have spell-stones, like power-stones from RuneQuest, that provide a number of spell slots of specific levels each day; also, there are magic items that hold a spell, but you must use your own spell slots to cast the spell (like spell foci from RQ and MERP). Rare items possess both spellcasting slots and spell knowledge, much like regular wands and staffs, but usually with more variety perm item and often far less power (though unlike wands and staffs, the spell slots recharge overnight). A typical low-level item of this type might have three 1st level spells and five 1st level spellcasting slots.

Power potions enable a caster to regain spell slots of a total specific value, lowest spell slots first, up to a certain level; a lesser potion, for example, provides 1d6 total levels of spellcasting slots up to 3rd level. If you do not have a slot available to replace, you keep the extra points of power for 1d6+6 turns and may use them to cast spells that you know up to the maximum level. If you haven't used the points by then, you suffer hit point damage equal to the remaining points.

[plethon]

I've been toying with a couple of ideas in my head,

One is a system where each spell slot gives you a 'mana pool' of dice of a specific type; so level 1 slots are d4s, level 2 slots are d6s, etc. When you want to cast a spell, you roll dice from these pools, 1 by 1, aiming for a specific number Blackjack style. The closer you get to the number, the better the effect; but if you go over, the spell misfires, with the exact nature of the misfire being based on the 'element' of the offending die (from Plato's Timaeus). So if a d4 sends you over the target, its a mishap involving Fire; a d6 would be a mishap involving Earth, etc.

Edit: The d10 isn't a platonic solid, but I was thinking it could cause a mishap involving quantity or size. The d12 is mysteriously attributed to the 'heavens' but also to animals as in the zodiac - perhaps a mishap involving creatures? Perhaps you could even incentivize rolling multiple dice at once by saying 'everytime you add dice takes another combat round'; then you could get mishaps involving multiple elements!


The other idea was to have all magic based on in-universe 'cards' or 'foils.' Mechanically, this would just work like spell scrolls, but I would make them significantly cheaper to produce and easier to find. The cards would be 'used up' and vanish just as scrolls only work once.

[Porphyre]

Like Hit points

[tdenmark]

You get X levels of spells to cast per day. X is your character's level + modifiers (ie. INT 14/+1)

A 1st level caster could cast a 1st level spell.

A 3rd level caster could cast a 3rd level spell, or three 1st level spells, or a 1st level and a 2nd level.

[tdenmark]

Mar 6, 2024 18:46:53 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

You get X levels of spells to cast per day. X is your character's level + modifiers (ie. INT 14/+1)

A 1st level caster could cast a 1st level spell.

A 3rd level caster could cast a 3rd level spell, or three 1st level spells, or a 1st level and a 2nd level.

The simplicity of this idea would require rebalancing the spells by level, which would be a huge task and make it incompatible with most OSR games.

Instead a cap on the level of the spells available to be cast can be used. This system already exists on the tables. In the example above, Magic-Users don't get access to 3rd level spells until 5th level. But we could spell it out more clearly.

Caster Level --> Max Spell Level Available (OD&D)
1 = 1
2 = 1
3 = 2
4 = 2
5 = 3
6 = 3
7 = 4
8 = 4
9 = 5
10 = 5
11 = 6

I've always found the incongruity between caster level and spell level to be strange. The word "level" is made to do too much work in D&D.

[Desparil]

Mar 6, 2024 22:06:44 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Mar 6, 2024 18:46:53 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

You get X levels of spells to cast per day. X is your character's level + modifiers (ie. INT 14/+1)

A 1st level caster could cast a 1st level spell.

A 3rd level caster could cast a 3rd level spell, or three 1st level spells, or a 1st level and a 2nd level.

The simplicity of this idea would require rebalancing the spells by level, which would be a huge task and make it incompatible with most OSR games.

Instead a cap on the level of the spells available to be cast can be used. This system already exists on the tables. In the example above, Magic-Users don't get access to 3rd level spells until 5th level. But we could spell it out more clearly.

Caster Level --> Max Spell Level Available (OD&D)
1 = 1
2 = 1
3 = 2
4 = 2
5 = 3
6 = 3
7 = 4
8 = 4
9 = 5
10 = 5
11 = 6

I've always found the incongruity between caster level and spell level to be strange. The word "level" is made to do too much work in D&D.

I've often thought there are too many spell levels in D&D, particularly as more spells were added in supplements, AD&D, and AD&D supplements. Most 2nd level spells are really not any more powerful than 1st level spells, and even some of the lesser 3rd level spells wouldn't be unbalanced in the hands of a starting magic-user. Meanwhile, the big 3rd level standouts like fireball, lightning bolt, haste/slow, and fly are all just as good if not better than the vast majority of 4th and 5th level spells, and better even than quite a number of even higher level spells. It feels like the spells could be more logically organized into somewhere between 3 and 5 tiers.

For just OD&D without any supplements, off the cuff I might do something like the following:
Cantrips: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Hold Portal, Light
1st Circle: Remainder of 1st level spells, all 2nd level spells, Infravision, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience
2nd Circle: Remainder of 3rd level spells, all 4th level spells, Cloudkill, Growth/Animal, Telekinesis
3rd Circle: Remainder of 5th level spells, all 6th level spells

Cantrips could be either unlimited but with dice rolls involved, have a separate daily limit (like in 3E), or give you between 2 and 4 cantrips for the price of one 1st Circle spell (like in AD&D)

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 8, 2024 3:22:42 GMT -6 Desparil said:

It feels like the spells could be more logically organized into somewhere between 3 and 5 tiers.

Normal, heroic, and superheroic spell tiers

[tdenmark]

Mar 8, 2024 5:21:22 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Mar 8, 2024 3:22:42 GMT -6 Desparil said:

It feels like the spells could be more logically organized into somewhere between 3 and 5 tiers.

Normal, heroic, and superheroic spell tiers

I'd add novice level (cantrips), but yeah that's a good idea.