Ways to determine hit points

[waysoftheearth]

It has always (or so I tell myself) seemed to me that characters with high constitution scores should somehow have higher starting hit points. Sure, you might get a +1 adjustment for a 15+ CON, but that character can still throw a 1, while the anaemic M-U with 4 CON can still dice 6.

I've been kicking around various ways of determining hp for decades, but nothing has ever really stuck. Last night I thought of something that has never occurred to me before: How about you take the middle die of your constitution 3d6 as your starting hit points?

This would produce an interesting distribution of h.p. that ensures high CON figures will have good hp, and low CON figures will have poor hp. It also saves a separate die roll for hp

If, for example, you rolled a 4, 4, 3 = 11 CON you'd begin with 4 h.p. because 4 is the middle die.

In fact, all the ways you could get an 11 CON are:

6,4,1 --> (6 combinations) --> 4 h.p.
6,3,2 --> (6 combinations) --> 3 h.p.
5,5,1 --> (3 combinations) --> 5 h.p.
5,4,2 --> (6 combinations) --> 4 h.p.
5,3,3 --> (3 combinations) --> 3 h.p.
4,4,3 --> (3 combinations) --> 4 h.p.

So, in total, there are 9/27 (33%) chances of 3 hp, 15/27 (56%) chances of 4 hp, and 3/27 (11%) chances of 5 hp when you roll 11 CON. I won't bore you with all the rest of the odds


So... what other ways do you use to determine starting hp?

[tombowings]

I enjoyed your Constitution divided by three as a bonus to a character's started hit points.

[jeffb]

Sept 19, 2021 6:12:49 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It has always (or so I tell myself) seemed to me that characters with high constitution scores should somehow have higher starting hit points. Sure, you might get a +1 adjustment for a 15+ CON, but that character can still throw a 1, while the anaemic M-U with 4 CON can still dice 6.

I've been kicking around various ways of determining hp for decades, but nothing has ever really stuck. Last night I thought of something that has never occurred to me before: How about you take the middle die of your constitution 3d6 as your starting hit points?

This would produce an interesting distribution of h.p. that ensures high CON figures will have good hp, and low CON figures will have poor hp. It also saves a separate die roll for hp

If, for example, you rolled a 4, 4, 3 = 11 CON you'd begin with 4 h.p. because 4 is the middle die.

In fact, all the ways you could get an 11 CON are:

6,4,1 --> (6 combinations) --> 4 h.p.
6,3,2 --> (6 combinations) --> 3 h.p.
5,5,1 --> (3 combinations) --> 5 h.p.
5,4,2 --> (6 combinations) --> 4 h.p.
5,3,3 --> (3 combinations) --> 3 h.p.
4,4,3 --> (3 combinations) --> 4 h.p.

So, in total, there are 9/27 (33%) chances of 3 hp, 15/27 (56%) chances of 4 hp, and 3/27 (11%) chances of 5 hp when you roll 11 CON. I won't bore you with all the rest of the odds


So... what other ways do you use to determine starting hp?

Very interesting. I cannot say I've done anything interesting when it comes to HP in OD&D/S&W/MCM etc. I give max HP for 1st level. I've been playing around with the Arduin (Vol II or RoA for S&W) system lately- that might be my go to, going forward. And in that case your CON score *IS* your base starting HP (along with a racial base and a couple points for class)

[dicebro]

Sometimes I just start at a higher level.

[jeffb]

Sept 20, 2021 6:03:18 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Sometimes I just start at a higher level.

Yep. I usually have only 3 players, so I start them out @ 3rd level if it seems right for what we are going to be doing. Nobody is into henchmen/hirelings.

[geoffrey]

Maximum hp at 1st level.

With each newly-acquired HD thereafter, you completely re-roll your hp. (For example, your fighter who has just become 5th level would grab 5d8 and roll them to determine his new hp total.) If your new roll is lower than your current hp total, then you keep your current hp total. Better luck next time!

The above method accomplishes two things that I like:

1. It helps those who most need it: 1st-level characters.

2. At 2nd and higher levels, it tends to push a character's hit point total towards the average.

[aramis]

While not used with Original, I've used this in BX, Cyclopedia, and AD&D 2:

All hit dice rolls are retained long term. At level 1, a roll under half is recorded as such, but total HP are raised to half maximum possible.
Each level thereafter, the new die is rolled and recorded, and one prior die is challenged. (Challenged: reroll and if higher, keep the new roll, else, keep the old one). Then total HP are run, totalling all hit dice and adding level×ConBonus; if still below half of the max for 1 HD, raise it to that.

Interaction with level drains: since you know exactly how much was gained for that level, you know how many current hit points go away... and how many come back when you regain that level.

[tkdco2]

I always give maximum hit points at level 1. When I start characters at higher levels that is figured into the total.

[Deleted]

I normally ask to roll 1d6 + HD + CON bonus.
Reroll every new level, keep the highest.

I just saw jeffb mention about Arduin in the other post, using the CON score.
I think I will try something more or less like that next, CON+HD, no need to roll, but no class adjustment.

Some lucky guy might roll a 18 for CON, but I think it's ok, there is no healing in my games and resting only heals 1 or 2 points per day, if any, so they'll start confident but will be at risk pretty soon.

[Mordorandor]

1d6 at 1st level. Whatever the result, players know if the first hit doesn’t kill their character, the second one likely will.

[hamurai]

An interesting idea!

[Lord Cias]

Sept 19, 2021 6:12:49 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I've been kicking around various ways of determining hp for decades, but nothing has ever really stuck. Last night I thought of something that has never occurred to me before: How about you take the middle die of your constitution 3d6 as your starting hit points?

[snip]

So... what other ways do you use to determine starting hp?

I kinda like that.

This made me think of a variation: you still roll for hp and add any constitution bonuses but use the lowest die rolled for constitution as the minimum for your hp roll at 1st level.

With this method those with low constitution would still have a possibility for a high hp roll. The highest constitution one could have but still have a minimum roll of "1" for hp would be 13. At 14 constitution the minimum hp roll would be 2, 3 (or 4 with the +1) for 15, etc. Conversely the lowest constitution one could have but still have a minimum roll of "2" would be 7*, and one's constitution could be as low as 9 but still have a minimum of 3 hp.

This would work well for someone that uses d8s for fighters' HD.

* While a constitution of 6 on a roll of three 2s would result in a minimum hp roll of 2, the -1 penalty makes that moot.

[blackbarn]

Roll 3d6 for each ability score.
Roll 3d6 (x10) for gold pieces.
Roll 3d6 (keep highest) for HP.

[vasious]

I am tempted to give (re)-Roll new HP totals every Adventure a go
On the premise HP are not meat points at all but just skill and luck
So one adventurer the Fighter might but fill of vim and Vigor and confidence (high HPs rolls)
and in another they (rolling low) feel a bit more cautious, and have a bad feeling about this dungeon delve.

[skars]

I generally just go with RAW using grayhawk hd by class. But, I have also run with max hp at first level. I like many of the suggested methods to mix things up

[coffeezombie]

In my games, hit points for all D&D is to give 1/2 the maximum result of the hit die, plus 1/2 random. So 1d6 HP turns into 3+1d3. This means there is some of the fun of random hit point retained, but the average is deliberately skewed towards the higher end.

[vasious]

Jun 19, 2022 18:05:13 GMT -6 vasious said:

I am tempted to give (re)-Roll new HP totals every Adventure a go
On the premise HP are not meat points at all but just skill and luck
So one adventurer the Fighter might but fill of vim and Vigor and confidence (high HPs rolls)
and in another they (rolling low) feel a bit more cautious, and have a bad feeling about this dungeon delve.

Further to this 
This is what I am currently planning to playtest


Hit points represent not meat, but luck and skill and other intangibles, so when a Character is “hit” but still has hit points left, it could be narrated or imagined as “it would have been a mortal blow but for X,Y or Z”with only the blow taking someone to zero Hit being the wounding blow



For Death and Dying The mortal wound table in ACKS page 106 is then used for Player Characters and Important NPCs, 


Hit Points are Rolled and Rerolled for each adventure and recorded on the Character sheet noting what each Hit die provides

Plus to a Hit die are recorded against the first one



This presents at different times a Character may be particularly lucky and adept in combat and at other times, luck is just not on their side and the mortal wound is all that much closer. This will have the flow on effect of a Character being played more confidently or more cautiously depending on that gut feeling that character may have as the Meta-knowledge the player has of their Hit Point total for this adventure.



How Long is an Adventure?

Whatever feels organic to the situation but should be delineated by some rest and downtime.



Recovery

As Characters lose Hit Points it is noted against the score each Hit Die provided, with a mark against any hit die that is exhausted.



A Week's worth of rest in a safe location is then needed before that Hit Die is restored and can be rolled again.

If that rest is not taken, and Hit Points need to be rerolled due to embarking on a new adventure those Hit Dice generate a zero total even including any modifiers.




Restoring Hit Points without the Rest

Curative Magic can restore hit points up to the Characters Maximum, but do not remove the mark against an exhausted Hit Die, so the need for rest and recovery in a safe place is not removed by a Cleric's Curative Spells or Potions of Healing but can restore confidence, vim and vigour mid adventure,.



At the referee's option, hit Points can be restored but Exhausted Hit Dice not unchecked by the use of herbal remedies or strong alcohol.

Such as a drink of Whiskey could regain 1d3 Hit Points, once per day, or the use of medicine herbs allow for the recovery of a hit point overnight whilst encamped mid adventure,



Again at the referee's option Rare Powerful Curative magics or the light might be able to uncheck Exhausted Hit Dice without the need for rest and recovery in a safe location

[noteef]

On topic…I typically just do d6 RAW, however, the one variant I have had success with is taking CON/3 for HP.

This is probably more workshop, but I am tinkering around with using Hits and only rolling when down to the last HD.

A Swordsman is hit three times in combat. The first two hits reduce 3 HD to 1. On the third hit, both monster and swordsman roll a d6. Because the Swordsman has high Constitution, he adds one to his result.

[retrorob]

Sept 19, 2021 6:12:49 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

So... what other ways do you use to determine starting hp?

1. Roll 1d6, adjust for class (Fighter gets +1) and Constitution (+/- 1).

2. Start with max HP, adjust for class and CON.

What is important, I use the re-rolling HP after level up rule. Sometimes I allow to re-roll, but it's rare and requires a special measure or effect (for example: magic fountain, grimoire, Wish, special training in the academy etc.)

[tkdco2]

I watched a video where the poster was comparing different OSR games by running a combat simulation. His method for determining hit points was taking 70% of the maximum hit points per level. The characters were IIRC level 3 fighters. I may adopt that when creating NPCs.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 8, 2022 16:51:06 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I watched a video where the poster was comparing different OSR games by running a combat simulation. His method for determining hit points was taking 70% of the maximum hit points per level. The characters were IIRC level 3 fighters. I may adopt that when creating NPCs.

This makes me think of a hp "arms race". If everyone, mostly, has above-average hp then it becomes increasingly disadvantageous to have low hp, so everyone has to have above average hp to remain viable. Also, as higher hp increasingly becomes the norm then the advantage of those rare, really high hp rolls is eroded; they're now just a few pips above what everyone has. Another side-effect is that combat will take longer because, with everyone having more hp, more damage has to be delivered for a result.

What does it all mean? Prolly, it's where an individual figure lies on the overall frequency distribution of possibly hp that determines whether that figure is advantaged or disadvantaged. Compared to everyone else.

An allowance to re-roll HD (and hp) makes unusually low (and high!) rolls temporary and, overall, pulls everyone toward the average over time. This in turn makes those high and low rolls more interesting, cos they stand out more from the crowd.

[flailsnail75]

I know it’s blasphemy but we always start first level characters with maximum hit points, when you level up then you have to start rolling.

[tdenmark]

Aug 2, 2022 17:47:13 GMT -6 flailsnail75 said:

I know it’s blasphemy but we always start first level characters with maximum hit points, when you level up then you have to start rolling.

I don't think it is blasphemy. It makes good sense.

Playing a 1 hp character is just ridiculous. I mean it can be fun in a roll up half a dozen characters and see which survive kind of way.

[tkdco2]

I agree. Allowing maximum hit points at level 1 doesn't guarantee survival, but it helps.

[waysoftheearth]

But whether PC survival is/was/should be an objective of the game design is, I think, a separate discussion... albeit an important one in deciding how you want to determine hit points

[Mushgnome]

Here's what I'm considering for my next campaign: Players roll 3d6 eight times (for the six abilities plus gold pieces and base hit points) and arrange the rolls in any order. So it is the player's choice whether to prioritize high hit points (or use hit points as a "dump stat") depending on the type of character they want to play.

How to translate 3d6 into 1-6 hit points? I like the formula (3d6)/3 round fractions up. i.e. you start with 6hp on a roll of 3d6=16+ and only get stuck with 1hp on a roll of 3d6=3.

(Base hit points are then modified for constitution and class, minimum 1hp obviously.)

[Mushgnome]

waysoftheearth I remember you had a 1hp character (Lupe Royce) in my Deep Arkham campaign. What was that like for you as a player?

[asaki]

We've been doing "max HP at level 1" for the longest time, now.

Some of these "roll three dice and take the average" and/or "re-roll all dice at next level" ideas sound interesting, too.

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 3, 2022 7:38:47 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

waysoftheearth I remember you had a 1hp character (Lupe Royce) in my Deep Arkham campaign. What was that like for you as a player?

Lupe Royce the street-urchin boy-thief (with 1 hp and top ability score=10 charisma) was awesome. I remember being disappointed when he subsequently rolled a 6 hp at 2nd level, cos it didn't seem right that a mere boy should have so many hp

[Mordorandor]

Here’s another way to handle HP.

The referee rolls 1d6 for each HD a character has/accrues.

1-2 = 0 HP
3-4 = 1 HP
5-6 = 2 HP

Con score HP modifier modifies each 1d6 roll.

HD modifier modifies the first 1d6 roll.

Minimum 1 HP in total.

A hit inflicts 1 HP.

For example, a 5th-level Fighter has 5+1 HD and a HP modifier of +1 because of CON 15.

Referee rolls five d6s:

3+2, 3+1, 2+1, 2+1, 2+1 = 6 HP (6 hits)

or maybe she rolls:

2+2, 1+1, 6+1, 1+1, 6+1 = 5 HP (5 hits)

By RAW, the first set would instead = 18 HP

18/3.5 = 5.14 hits

By RAW, the second set would instead = 22 HP

22/3.5 = 6.28 hits

A fireball spell thrown by a 5th-level Magic-User inflicts 5 hits.

It’s a comparable approach that reduces the fiddly math (IMHO).