MV Rates for Up & Down Stairs / Slopes - for long distances!

[howandwhy99]

With all the weird and grand elements of the game world I suppose hourly and daily travel rates for stairs and slopes shouldn't be that odd, but I don't know of any published rules. So here are some homebrew ones and justifications which I came up with. I post it here for criticism analysis general shame...

Movement Rate rate assumptions for hourly and daily travels

1. Gravity assists when traveling downhill and speeds are increased. However gravity slows travelers when moving uphill.

2. Slopes are assumed to be ≤30° but are generally smooth ground. They are like plains and easy to travel upon either up or down. (I slow sideways slope movement too]

3. Stairs decrease speed because of careful foot placement and an assumed steeper slope: between 30° and 45°.

4. Slopes as steep as stairs: ≥30°, would slow walkers until they are so steep as to be climbing: ≥45°. Or become traps not to fall and slide down.

While manufactured slopes and stairs of vast length are a bit peculiar, they have come up in my game. Making them different than outdoor terrain movement, which assumes side to side and climbing, I've come up with the following long distance travel rates:

Normal Move	x1	unchanged
Slope Down	x2	gravity aided
Stairs Down	x1	gravity aided, but slowed due to stairs
Slope Up	x1/2	gravity hindered
Stairs Up	x1/4	gravity hindered and slowed due to stairs

My only concern is the increased down slope movement. I think this actually wears on traveler after awhile and would require more rest breaks than normal. Perhaps such would all work out to normal movement rate then?

[Red Baron]

The game operates on a higher level of abstraction.

10' of stairs = 1"
10' of passage = 1"

For an exceptionally broken, cobwebby, slimy, etc stairway I might note something like 'broken stairs movement limited to 3" ' on the map key.

Otherwise don't worry about it.

[cometaryorbit]

In general, it wouldn't matter, sure.

But if you mean really *long* distances - maybe miles of slopes - I think x2 for downslope is too much. Going down steep slopes is tricky and you have to go slower to be safe; a gentle slope, maybe not, but I don't think the advantage would be much if any.

[asaki]

Well if the players are mapping, the walking speed is going to be the same regardless of whether they are going uphill or downhill, so it's a little irrelevant there.

[howandwhy99]

Ascending up the Empire State building is an arduous and very long affair. descending is much faster. As a for instance.

Hill terrain is 1/2 MV, but requires side-to-side movement through hillside passes. I take ascending sloped mountain foothills to take the same rate when travelling in a straight line up.

[dicebro]

This is too much realism for my fantasy game. Whew! Ive been generally trying to simplify calculations of movement. On the other hand, this might be useful for some kind of gravity trap.

[cometaryorbit]

May 6, 2021 15:22:39 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Ascending up the Empire State building is an arduous and very long affair. descending is much faster. As a for instance.

Oh, certainly. What I question is whether it's faster than walking the same distance on a flat surface. (Likely a bit, but IMO below the "resolution" of movement rates - 2x seems way too much in any case).

[howandwhy99]

Hmmmm. Perhaps walking itself is the hindrance? And those faster speeds can only be achieved when free wheeling or on snow sleds? Makes me wonder about downhill skiing speeds.

I'd be fine with no faster movement down slope given the wear on the body longterm.

[premmy]

Speaking from personal experience with walking down slopes, you definitely won't be twice as fast as walking on flat ground. You won't even be significantly faster. If anything, you'll be slower.

When you walk on level surface, you let gravity take care of most of the work: you put one foot forward, lean forward slightly, and let gravity pull you down (and therefore forward, since your center of mass is forward of your torso) until your forward foot is on the ground, then you use your momentum to raise and advance your other foot. Rinse and repeat. In other words, most of your downwards motion (courtesy of gravity) is seamless transformed into forward motion.

When you're walking down a slope (of more than minuscule steepness), however, there's a significant downwards vector of your motion. You cannot convert all that energy into forward motion, since that would lead you to RUNNING down the slope after a few steps and inevitably having a nasty fall. Consequently, a much greater ratio of gravity's effect will have to absorbed by your knees and calves, which tires you out much faster.

[howandwhy99]

Now I'm wondering if there are rate changes once we apply these to small-scale movement? I thought that was solid ground. <groan>

Recent editions simplify most things to "double cost, difficult ground". But maybe running downhill increases per round movement?

This could add something to combat and selecting "encounter sites". (Aka my players ambushing my NPCs again) 😀

[dicebro]

Honest question. Why bother with all of these calculations? It kind of defeats the overall purpose of the game in my opinion.

[badger2305]

May 14, 2021 5:42:03 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Honest question. Why bother with all of these calculations? It kind of defeats the overall purpose of the game in my opinion.

It can help determine whether or not a party of adventurers can evade pursuing monsters, or vice versa.

Some people like this kind of calculation, others do not. Since the game has some specific measurements, such as movement, you can use this, or not. Up to you.

[dicebro]

May 14, 2021 7:03:57 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

May 14, 2021 5:42:03 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Honest question. Why bother with all of these calculations? It kind of defeats the overall purpose of the game in my opinion.

It can help determine whether or not a party of adventurers can evade pursuing monsters, or vice versa.

Some people like this kind of calculation, others do not. Since the game has some specific measurements, such as movement, you can use this, or not. Up to you.

How then is the mechanic applied? Let’s say I’d like to give it a try. Please assist me in understanding how to use it in a dungeon where the monsters are pursuing a party. I’m trying to be positive here, but I’m a bit baffled. 

[howandwhy99]

I was thinking specifically of the Spiral stairs at the core of the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, but trick slopes matter too.

When I design a dungeon I recognize that the design itself encompasses so many of the challenges in the game. The spiral stairs are deceptive to players who think they can simply head down them, time passes, and they reach a new level perhaps with a pair of doors with an inscription beside.

It's relatively quick to go down the stairs. Even dozens of feet Into the Depths may be plunged. It seems all too easy, except... returning up said stairs 100 feet even 200 feet is no simple matter. It is "exhausting" and slow going. If the PCs disturbed creatures below, or worse are being chased, this can be a life-or-death matter.

Knowing how to adventure better is a huge part of the game for me when no encounter is ever predetermined and can be avoided (Not to mention sought out).

[dicebro]

May 14, 2021 23:18:59 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

I was thinking specifically of the Spiral stairs at the core of the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, but trick slopes matter too.

When I design a dungeon I recognize that the design itself encompasses so many of the challenges in the game. The spiral stairs are deceptive to players who think they can simply head down them, time passes, and they reach a new level perhaps with a pair of doors with an inscription beside.

It's relatively quick to go down the stairs. Even dozens of feet Into the Depths may be plunged. It seems all too easy, except... returning up said stairs 100 feet even 200 feet is no simple matter. It is "exhausting" and slow going. If the PCs disturbed creatures below, or worse are being chased, this can be a life-or-death matter.

Knowing how to adventure better is a huge part of the game for me when no encounter is ever predetermined and can be avoided (Not to mention sought out).

So I’m assuming you are using this rule in volume 3:
“Avoiding Monsters: Monsters will automatically attack and/or pursue any characters they “see,” with the exception of those monsters which are intelligent enough to avoid an obviously superior force. There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 20 feet, unless the monster itself has been surprised. If the adventurers choose to flee, the monster will continue to pursue in a straight line as long as there is not more than 90 feet between the two. When a corner is turned or a door passed through or stairs up or down taken the monster will only continue to follow if a 1 or a 2 is rolled on a 6-sided die. If a secret door is passed through the monster will follow only on a roll of 1. Distance will open or close dependent upon the relative speeds of the two parties, men according to their encumbrance and monsters according to the speed given on the Monster Table in Vol. II. In order to move faster characters may elect to discard items such as trea- sure, weapons, shields, etc. in order to lighten encumbrance.”

soooo,
Here’s the hypothetical: the party is still being pursued by the time they make it to the exit stairs, and the party will be moving 3” if encumbered with plate mail and/or treasure. So they start heading up the steep stairs. Let’s say for example the monsters are still pursuing and are moving at 9”. I also assume that your gravity rules will affect both sides equally as they move up the stairs. Thus the net effect is zero. The monsters still catch the party whether or not the Referee includes Gravity as a factor indicated in the new rule above.

Therefore the new gravity rule for stairs seems superfluous to me. Gravity is already a part of the game.

Your explanation unfortunately does not Help me understand why it’s useful to add the above rules during encounters involving a party being chased up some stairs. Maybe I’m missing something. Please be more specific. Show me what you mean, please.

[howandwhy99]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not looking to agitate anyone. Those were light-hearted comments in the original post.

These new rules are for exploration movement and long-distance travel tracking by the DM. Like on Darlene's Greyhawk map when determining travel times. They apply because by my understanding time (and position) is accounted for without fail in D&D.

I like your devotion to the rules. Admittedly, I use a much more complicated design when it comes to creature behavior, including in the Pursuit & Evasion game.

By your example, that team of players is not really wishing to escape. They are outpaced 3:1 and not taking action to change that. All the movers will tire per fatigue rules, but those burdened will end up resting more frequently over the same distance. Not to mention potential doubling of actions from random initiative each round (if we assume an encounter scale "within sight" chase).

That said, if they don't apply to you, then no need to use them. They are already for rare circumstances.

[dicebro]

May 15, 2021 23:05:07 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not looking to agitate anyone. Those were light-hearted comments in the original post.

These new rules are for exploration movement and long-distance travel tracking by the DM. Like on Darlene's Greyhawk map when determining travel times. They apply because by my understanding time (and position) is accounted for without fail in D&D.

I like your devotion to the rules. Admittedly, I use a much more complicated design when it comes to creature behavior, including in the Pursuit & Evasion game.

By your example, that team of players is not really wishing to escape. They are outpaced 3:1 and not taking action to change that. All the movers will tire per fatigue rules, but those burdened will end up resting more frequently over the same distance. Not to mention potential doubling of actions from random initiative each round (if we assume an encounter scale "within sight" chase).

That said, if they don't apply to you, then no need to use them. They are already for rare circumstances.

Not agitated. Just trying to use your method, but am failing to understand how. I am Genuinely interested in new rules because I love to Referee OD&D. Please forgive me for appearing curt, but now I’m even more confused! I’ll just have to leave it at that.

[qomannon]

Added to your list for my campaign:

Throwing Hobbit down bottomless pit:  Terminal Velocity

[Mordorandor]

Apr 27, 2021 22:05:10 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

With all the weird and grand elements of the game world I suppose hourly and daily travel rates for stairs and slopes shouldn't be that odd, but I don't know of any published rules. So here are some homebrew ones and justifications which I came up with. I post it here for criticism analysis general shame...

....

The way I approach it is Chainmail governs, unless D&D explicitly spells it out. (Pun intended when referring that arcane set of guidelines.)

"Hill: Slows movement 50%, prevents all charge moves, but movement downhill is at normal speed."

Stairs are (obviously) "hills" in D&D. "Obviously." all tongue-in-cheek!

Also, if the area is mapped, speed increases greatly. (AD&D details this a bit.)

My way is:

With a MV of 120, an exploration turn (10 min) is at 240.

If moving through a mapped/familiar area, the rate is 240 per round (1 min), or 2,400 per turn.

A familiar descent into 240 feet of Underworld would be but a round (or a negligible amount of time to begin an adventure in the first room of that deep dungeon).