B2's outdoor map as a model for a campaign world?

[geoffrey]

B2's outdoor map has a scale of one square = 100 yards. Movement is notoriously slow.

What are your thoughts on developing an entire campaign world using only this map as a template? In other words, the campaign world would start with a map on the same scale, then add another contiguous one as needed, then another, and another, and etc. There would be no larger scale maps in this campaign.

Would this be fun? Or do you prefer 5-mile hexes as in the Wilderlands?

Or do you like really large scale like the World of Greyhawk with its 30-mile hexes?

Or...?

[Deleted]

It's the ideal scale for exploration rather than just travel. The B2 map has that forest and the slow movement makes it all the more tense and eerie.

I prefer this to having large scale hexes where DMs always end up subdividing or winging the details within anyway.

[Vile Traveller]

Large scale maps are useful for the referee to keep things in order, or as player handouts (with plenty of inaccuracies and red herrings). For actual play small scale maps are much more useful.

I don't use grids on Wilderness maps, just scale bars and a ruler.

[geoffrey]

Dec 14, 2020 5:12:33 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I don't use grids on Wilderness maps, just scale bars and a ruler.

I've thought about that, making 1" equal 16 miles, so each little 1/16th mark on the ruler would be 1 mile.

[tetramorph]

I really do like this idea. I like the level of scale. I do not like the actual map. Frankly, to me, it is kind of boring. I like a more JG (Arnesonian?) underworld and wilderness, rather than a Gygaxian one. If there was a temple to a frog god and a bazaar with hookas a harems and a wizard tower with a lightening reactor powering a stone crystal projector I would be a lot more interested in the actual map.

[Vile Traveller]

Dec 14, 2020 10:12:38 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Dec 14, 2020 5:12:33 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I don't use grids on Wilderness maps, just scale bars and a ruler.

I've thought about that, making 1" equal 16 miles, so each little 1/16th mark on the ruler would be 1 mile.

Well, as a recently-retired landscape architect I have lots of scale rulers lying around, but the versatility of inch rulers makes them a staple of the wargaming crowds I've been in. There's lots more ways to divide 12 than there is for 10.

[dicebro]

I prefer 5 mile hexes. My hex map just gives me a basic idea about the general terrain. I’d rather add more specific details on the fly. Also, don’t have time to detail everything to know about every hex.

[retrorob]

dicebro

Same here. Generally I use 3 or 5 mile hex (experimented with 2 and 6 miles too). As for the world map, I have only a rudimentary outline of the continents, seas etc. And if I need more details, I sketch something on the spot, very rarely using hexes here. 100 yards per hex makes the area too small. I like the idea of vast wilderness, you know, prairie vistas with mountains ranges in the distance etc.

B2 has a nice hunting mechanics though.

That being said, recently I mapped such mini-sandbox area in AKS, but without strict scale. I think I could pack it all within five 5-mile hexes.

 

[dicebro]

Retrorob

It’s interesting to think about why we make maps like these. The terrain symbols have the function of identifying an immediate, albeit generalized, surrounding to be perceived by the characters who “travel”.  They help motivate the players to behave in specific ways. They also help them prepare for possible threats. For example, a party with few rations may avoid a desert terrain symboled hex altogether.  they also provide me, the ref, with enough detail to predict my own actions in the game: what random tables I may choose or even what adjectives I will use.  Each of the terrain symbols could also correspond to an ever-growing list of relevant metaphors and adjectives.  I just thought of that.  Going to work on that now!

[Red Baron]

Several means of wilderness transportation are listed as having movement rates of 20 or more hexes per day - galleys and several flyers.

In order for those to be fully utilized you need several maps worth of 5-mile hexes.

Teleport also means a lot more when you can cross a hundred hexes in an instant.

[dicebro]

The 30 mile hexes of Greyhawk were impossible for me to use. I prefer the 5 mile Outdoor Survival style point system.

[retrorob]

dicebro

Technically speaking, the Outdoor Survival hex has 3 miles: "Each turn in the game represents one day; each hexagon on the mapboard represents a width of five kilometers (three miles)". It was Gary who changed it into 5 miles, as Arneson apparently used 10-mile hex (TFFC, Adventures in Fantasy).

I got some second thoughts about the movement point system. I mean terrain penalties. What about something more abstract: PC on foot can always move 3 hexes a day and the only difference is a chance for wilderness encounter (adventure).

[dicebro]

Dec 16, 2020 10:02:29 GMT -6 retrorob said:

dicebro

Technically speaking, the Outdoor Survival hex has 3 miles: "Each turn in the game represents one day; each hexagon on the mapboard represents a width of five kilometers (three miles)". It was Gary who changed it into 5 miles, as Arneson apparently used 10-mile hex (TFFC, Adventures in Fantasy).

I got some second thoughts about the movement point system. I mean terrain penalties. What about something more abstract: PC on foot can always move 3 hexes a day and the only difference is a chance for wilderness encounter (adventure).

Yep, OD&D for the 5 mile hex. But I like the point system used in OS and referred to in [O]D&D Vol.III.

[dicebro]

Dec 17, 2020 5:05:55 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Dec 16, 2020 10:02:29 GMT -6 retrorob said:

dicebro

I got some second thoughts about the movement point system. I mean terrain penalties. What about something more abstract: PC on foot can always move 3 hexes a day and the only difference is a chance for wilderness encounter (adventure).

I must admit that 3 hexes per day is attractive. It’s easier. I may go that way some day. Alex Schroeder has a similar method: one hex per day regardless of horses or terrain. 8 hexes per day by ship. I think that is pretty cool. No maths, no fuss, just get on with it.  He rolls for one day time encounter and one nightly encounter. The nightly encounter rule is great.  Roll dice to see who is on watch instead of planning it all out first. The player in charge of the character on watch then gets to select a second character in the group as his watch buddy.  Everyone else is asleep. Characters cannot sleep in their armor. Alex completely forgoes the uninterrupted sleep rules for spellcasters because they don’t really add to the game. I think he’s on to something and I’m on the verge of heading down that road. Thanks for the comments and correction.

[retrorob]

dicebro

B2 has a nice passage about camping - guards, bonfire etc. It's an outdoor survival basics

I allow characters to sleep in armor, it makes night encounters far more survivable. As for the number of encounters it's up to the referee. I used to roll 2 dice (day/night), but it resulted in a lot of fighting and pursuing. Now I roll only once a day, and not all of the encounters are with monsters (I adapted "personal" adventures from Outdoor Survival).

[dicebro]

Dec 19, 2020 4:08:30 GMT -6 retrorob said:

dicebro

B2 has a nice passage about camping - guards, bonfire etc. It's an outdoor survival basics

I allow characters to sleep in armor, it makes night encounters far more survivable. As for the number of encounters it's up to the referee. I used to roll 2 dice (day/night), but it resulted in a lot of fighting and pursuing. Now I roll only once a day, and not all of the encounters are with monsters (I adapted "personal" adventures from Outdoor Survival).

I only roll once per day too. It just makes life easier. I’m working on some very easy hex map terrain & wilderness travel house rules for my od&d world. It’s almost done and I think you would like it. Hope to publish it to my blog, and here, soon. See dicebro.blogspot.com for my earlier posts. Cheers to Happy Gaming!

[tombowings]

I roll once per day, but also roll a d24 to determine when the (potential) encounter occurs.

[dicebro]

Dec 19, 2020 4:08:30 GMT -6 retrorob said:

dicebro

B2 has a nice passage about camping - guards, bonfire etc. It's an outdoor survival basics

I allow characters to sleep in armor, it makes night encounters far more survivable. As for the number of encounters it's up to the referee. I used to roll 2 dice (day/night), but it resulted in a lot of fighting and pursuing. Now I roll only once a day, and not all of the encounters are with monsters (I adapted "personal" adventures from Outdoor Survival).

How many days in a row can a character sleep in their armor? I might consider giving a penalty because I’m sure it would get irritating as heck.

[delta]

IMO, the B2 map is way too small-scale. It's beautiful to look at, and neat that the castle and caves areas are actually recognizable at that scale -- but I don't think it was planned out super well for gaming/scale purposes. Or even using squares (as opposed to hexes) in the first place.

Frankly, any scale where you have huge tracts of territory that's homogeneous and undifferentiated (like the woods) is not a great idea, I think. I agree that the Outdoor Survival map with lots of interesting terrain changes, nooks and crannies, etc., is a lot more gameable. Another example: the map to the Barbarian Prince game.

Like others, I am constantly wrestling with myself over the attractiveness of 3-mile hexes (as in Outdoor Survival; and you could just say "leagues" in game as the unit). But when you consider travel rate for horses or flyers and see they'd be traveling ~20 hexes or so per day, i.e., cross a whole page in 1 or 2 days, it seems not viable. (Whereas it was perfect in Outdoor Survival where you're always on foot and only moving 7 hexes/day or less.) So for me 6-mile hexes for daily travel is where I've planted the stake.

[Deleted]

I would use this for a micro-campaign lasting between four and ten sessions. I'd like to run a few games over the next few years to that effect. It's always tempting to try for a never-ending campaign but sometimes knowing there's a definitive stopping point works well, especially with smaller maps. This would be a good opportunity for me to try my hand at GMing Old School Essentials. 

[ratikranger]

I run "Expedition to the Borderlands" every now and then which takes place in a single 5-mile hex refined as per the "Triumphant Grand Tactical" guidelines. All the "Caves of Chaos" lairs are split up and dropped around the keep at the center of the hex, turning B2 into a "micro hexcrawl" of sorts. I am actually reworking my old Hexographer maps using text-mapper right now, but I digress.

For what it's worth, I much prefer the 5-mile hex scale. Maybe it's just that the numbers work out so nicely? The 5-mile hex gets refined into 25 1-mile hexes, each of which gets refined into 25 0.2-mile hexes for a total of 625 0.2-mile hexes. The default Judges Guild hex sheet is 37x27 = 999 hexes, another fun numerical coincidence. I use a "movement budget" approach (developed independently of but similar too "Triumphant Grand Tactical" as it were) so I don't really need to worry about hex scale dividing movement rates evenly.

I just finished some major restructuring using the "Medieval Demographics Made Easy" guidelines to make sure the hex actually has enough farms/farmland to feed the population of the keep. This also gives the monsters more places to attack and the players more places to worry about defending. Sorry, I went into rant mode again.

I guess in the context of this thread, I clearly fall on the "love detailed maps" camp since I find them a lot more useful at the table. Of course some groups don't like hexcrawls and such details are meaningless to them. I guess it all depends on what you're into.

[bobjester0e]

I blew the scale up in the Keep on the Borderlands to 300 yards per square, so the caves were more than just under 2 miles away from the keep. (6 squares almost 1 mile, instead of just under 18 squares = 1 mile...) I did this because I remember how long it took us (as kids) to walk 8 miles into the countryside to the tallest hill & box canyon in the county, and I wanted something to represent that experience.

Map scales should be adjusted to whatever suits the campaign/adventure focus. If its realism you're after, go with what you've seen IRL.

If you want to make time & movement as easy as possible, consider working with 8, 12, or 24 mile increment scales. I like big 24 mile hexes, and for clearer detail, I can zoom into a big hex using six 4 mile hexes, and even greater detail using twenty four 1 mile hexes. This gives me plenty of room to work with raw landscape design too. Start big, zoom in for a campaign thread, then zoom in again for something very adventure specific.

[cooper]

Dec 13, 2020 21:21:37 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Would this be fun? Or do you prefer 5-mile hexes as in the Wilderlands?

This is often overlooked (easily enough given how chaotic the texts are), but judges guild Wilderlands Used a nested hex system with concrete rules governing travel there in. The overland map was 5 miles, yes, but it didn't stop there. the sub hex was 0.2 miles and that area was required to be explored. A single 5 mile over hex could have multiple dungeons, towns, points of interest etc.  the osr has tended to hand wave this by putting a single encounter in each hex, but it makes the world quite small if you don't use the sub hex system.

Movement in the sub hex was the characters movement rate in hexes per hour (heavily modified by terrain); Here is B2 using judges guild sub hex system:




When you landed in a hex, you didn't automatically land in your desired location. It had to be found. Even a city must be found if you weren't following a road. The placement of B2 in the Wilderlands in this example by James Mishler (who has a great blog on this subject called hanging out in the city state) was one hex below lightelf in hex 4623 of Roglaras (map 1 Wilderlands):



Starting with a central sub campaign hex and one days travel in any direction (one to three 5 mile hexes) could hold dozens of dungeons, encounters and villages. When used with the sub hex system distance is not merely hand waved at this scale nor are points of interest found automatically by the players. Best of all the group can keep campaign time well organized and integrated with the larger campaign map.

Overland 5 mile hex = days
Overland 0.2 mile sub hex = hours
Overland 42' sub sub-hex = minutes
Dungeon 10' grid = minutes