When did 10-sided dice start being used in D&D?

[geoffrey]

James Maliszewski on his Grognardia blog wrote a very interesting anti-10-sided dice post: grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/throw-away-d10s.html

I was particularly intrigued by this: "I remember when I first saw a D10 -- when my friend Shawn bought the Moldvay Basic Set -- and I thought it looked "wrong." I knew nothing of regular solids at that point, but, on some level, I intuited that the D10 was a fraud and so it is. This didn't stop us from using it, of course, but I've long held the D10 in mild contempt and still do on some level. In any case, D&D thrived for many years before the advent of the D10..."

Since 4-, 6-, 8-, 12-, and 20-sided (numbered 0-9 twice) dice were used in D&D before D&D was published, when were actual 10-sided dice added to the mix?

BTW, one will notice the distinct lack of a 10-sided Platonic solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solids

[Finarvyn]

I don't know if the d10 is "wrong" or not, but I don't like 'em much. I suppose that harkens back to the days of the original d4-d6-d8-d12-d20 dice, and the fact that the d20 could be used as a d10 or d100. You didn't really need an extra die -- either the d10 or d20 but not both.

On the other hand, I suppose the same argument could be made against the d4 or d6, since the d12 can do 1-4 (1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12) and 1-6 (1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, 9-10, 11-12) quite easily.

So ... I suppose if you only got to pick 3 dice it could be the d8, d10, and d12, although my anti-d10 bias would probably lead me to pick d8, d12, and d20. :-)

[geoffrey]

Fin, do you remember when 10-siders first started being used?

I started gaming in late 1980, and we used 10-siders right from the start.

I note that my 1978 Gamma World rulebook mentions 4-, 6-, 8-, 12-, and 20-sided dice, but NOT 10-sided dice.

Near the beginning of the DMG is a small drawing of 5 different sorts of dice. The 10-sider is missing.

Can we conclude that 10-siders had their origin in 1979-80?

[foster1941]

Note also the AD&D DMG: page 9 shows a picture of the 5 platonic solid dice (no d10), and includes the following on page 10: "(assuming the use of a standard d20 which is numbered 0-9 twice without coloring one set of faces to indicate that those faces have 10 added to the number appearing)," "the d20 is used often, both as d10 and d20," and (most pertinently)

Non-platonic solid-shaped dice are available in some places. The most common of these is a ten-sided die numbered 0-9. As with the d20, this can be used for many purposes, even replacing the d20 if a second die is used in conjunction to get 5% interval curves (1-20). Also, the die can give 0-9 linear curve random numbers, as the d20 can.

So obviously by the time the DMG was published (summer 1979) the ten-sided die existed, but wasn't yet the standard and was still considered somewhat exotic and unusual. Someone older than me would have to answer if a d10 was included in a boxed set prior to the 1981 D&D Basic and Expert Sets (I'm guessing not) and when the d10 (and d20 marked 1-20) started being included as standard in stand-alone polyhedral dice sets.

It's perhaps worth noting that as late as 1987-88 I purchased boxed sets of Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu, and RuneQuest that all came with 0-9 d20s. In Panaoia they were used strictly for percentiles (IIRC), but RQ (and probably CoC as well) definitely included instructions for how to mark the d20 (they suggested coloring one set of faces green so "green is teen") or roll it in conjunction with a second die to get 1-20 results.

[harami2000]

Oct 11, 2008 15:16:38 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

So obviously by the time the DMG was published (summer 1979) the ten-sided die existed, but wasn't yet the standard and was still considered somewhat exotic and unusual.

*nods*. Not even recognised as an option for 1e RQ; per www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/peoples-computer/peoples-1978-nov-dec/1978-11-12-PCC-p15.jpg

Zocchi probably frightened everyone off d10s with his weird and wonderful design "suggestion" for those back in Panzerfaust (around 1973, IIRC).

=
(aside/OT: October 1972 same publication, for reference; www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/peoples-computer/peoples-1972-oct/1972-10-PCC-p7-medium.jpg )

[James Maliszewski]

My Holmes Basic Rules came with chits rather than dice, but friends of mine who also obtained the Holmes set got 5 polyhedral dice that did not include a D10. This was in late 1979. My Gamma World boxed set came with the same dice (not D10). I don't recall seeing such a thing until the Moldvay set, although they obviously existed before then.

[sham]

I started playing around the same time as many of the posters here, with Holmes Basic. IIRC my box came with a set of the low impact poly's (and no d10), then again I know my box had chits, so maybe that first set was a blister pack of 'Dragon Dice'. If I had to guess I'd say d10's didn't come around until '82 or so, but that's a wild guess. The first d10 I saw was part of one of those crystal sets that were so popular in the early 80's. Even then those newer dice came 'uninked'. The d**n uninked crystals were almost impossible to read from more than a couple of feet away.

As far as I'm concerned, I have no need for a die numbered 1-20, nor do I have a need for those 00-90 d10's meant for percentile rolls. Renumbering the d20 in 1-20 has created this need for more dice.

It's a dice selling conspiracy, I tell you.

[calithena]

It might have been with Moldvay. This is a question that you might want to ask at DF or rpg.net.

Were they originally a zocchi design, or did someone else come up with them?

I remember when they showed up - they kind of struck me as an abomination. They can be useful for hit points and weapon damage though, since they roll a little faster than 0-9 d20s. But still, don't we sometimes sacrifice convenience for higher moral principles?

[castiglione]

Anyone know where one can purchase some old school d20's (numbered 0-9 twice)?

[thorswulf]

You can still get d20's numbered 0-9 from www.Nobleknight.com, and on E-bay under accessories in the Roleplaying section. I forget the name of the company, but they produce Gamescience these days and sell via Ebay. Be warned, they are a little more expensive than most "nice" dice these days. You can also get them in most game stores who stock the dice in the plastic boxes.

Ah the good old days of dice.... Need a D6? "Liberate" them from the Yahtzee game. D4- the pointy die of pain and suffering-particularly when you step on one in bare feet! Ah the joy of filling in the numbers with black crayons, also "liberated" from the crayon box!

I confess I purchased a bunch of Gamescience dice over the last few years. Most of mine disappeared over the year and I missed them. My 2 year old daughter likes playing with the larger casino dice I gave her. I was hoping to distract her from my other dice, no luck she knows where daddy keeps them!

[greyharp]

They're nigh on impossible to find on the Noble Knight Games site, so here's the direct link:

www.nobleknight.com/productdetailsearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_16816_A_InventoryID_E_2147586247

[geoffrey]

Nov 1, 2008 23:20:18 GMT -6 castiglione said:

Anyone know where one can purchase some old school d20's (numbered 0-9 twice)?

I bought these dice:
cgi.ebay.com/100-numbered-Dice-Opaque-Gaming-D-D-Lottery_W0QQitemZ250305954012QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250305954012&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

All the 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice. Awesome dice!

[dwayanu]

Old numbers of The Dragon might help narrow the answer, if you're really into the history. Moldvay Basic (c. 1981) seems likely to have popularized the die, if it was included in the box.

[grodog]

I'm almost positive that the percentile d10s were standard issue with Star Frontiers and Gangbusters; SF is after Moldvay Basic, but I'm not sure that GB was, offhand. My copy of Top Secret came with the pink/white d20s numbered 0-9 twice (we need an acronym/abbreviation for that? Od20, perhaps = Original d20? ).

Per the Acaeum, 8th printings Basic sets (1st Moldvay sets) were 1981, with 3rd printing B2s, which were from 1980. So, no real month targets are coming from there, unfortunately. I don't have many old Lou Zocchi catalogs, but some Acaeum/Tome of Treasures folks do, so they're a potential resource for further research, along with Dragon.

[castiglione]

Nov 2, 2008 8:02:43 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Nov 1, 2008 23:20:18 GMT -6 castiglione said:

Anyone know where one can purchase some old school d20's (numbered 0-9 twice)?

I bought these dice:
cgi.ebay.com/100-numbered-Dice-Opaque-Gaming-D-D-Lottery_W0QQitemZ250305954012QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250305954012&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

All the 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice. Awesome dice!

I just got these...yep, all 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice.

Great old-school dice!

Now...what's the accepted means of coloring these rascals?

White crayon?

[badger2305]

Sharpie - or miniatures paint; acrylic can work well, but you may need to redo them from time to time.

[stonetoflesh]

I've found that ultra-fine-tip paint pens (from any craft store) work really well, especially for those nasty gem dice that are such pains to read. Gotta be careful though, otherwise the paint will bleed all over the place...

[castiglione]

How do you guys color "two-tone" d20's, i.e. d20's numbered from 0-9 twice?

Do you color one set of 0-9 and then leave the other blank?

Or color one set of 0-9 one color and then color the other set a different color?

[coffee]

Nov 13, 2008 7:52:10 GMT -6 castiglione said:

How do you guys color "two-tone" d20's, i.e. d20's numbered from 0-9 twice?

Do you color one set of 0-9 and then leave the other blank?

Or color one set of 0-9 one color and then color the other set a different color?

I've done both. But with a real dark sharpie (mine's purple), I then had trouble seeing the black numbers (which weren't too well inked in the first place).

So I went over the numbers with gold paint and my smallest brush. Not too bad an effect, that.

[stonetoflesh]

Nov 2, 2008 8:02:43 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Nov 1, 2008 23:20:18 GMT -6 castiglione said:

Anyone know where one can purchase some old school d20's (numbered 0-9 twice)?

I bought these dice:
cgi.ebay.com/100-numbered-Dice-Opaque-Gaming-D-D-Lottery_W0QQitemZ250305954012QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250305954012&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

All the 20-siders are numbered 0-9 twice. Awesome dice!

I ordered a set of these on Monday and they arrived on Thursday. The d6's seem a little oversized, but overall they're great dice for the price. Long live the 0-9 d20!

[gsvenson]

Nov 13, 2008 7:52:10 GMT -6 castiglione said:

How do you guys color "two-tone" d20's, i.e. d20's numbered from 0-9 twice?

Do you color one set of 0-9 and then leave the other blank?

Or color one set of 0-9 one color and then color the other set a different color?

I painted one set red and the other black. The die itself was grey, I had a white d20 die, too. I don't remember which came in my little brown box and which I got later.

[blackmoor]

The white one Greg. Blue d12, white d10, greend8, pink (ick, ick, ick,) d6. yellow d4 (sharp points). The original d10 were red and black w/o filled numbers. I used correction fluid to fill them. Three of them actually still exist. Bought in England about 1967.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Game Design"

[Zenopus]

*bump*

/casts Thread Necromancy spell...

I have a new blog post on an RPG artifact of the '70s, the marked 20-sided die - to turn it into a die that rolls 1-20:

zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/04/marked-20-sided-die.html



(Wow, the previous poster in this thread was Dave Arneson....! Have we archived all his posts here?)

[ritt]

Fascinating thread. Thanks to all.

I have a very vague memory of reading a nonfiction piece about the Steve Jackson Games Secret Service raid by "Cyberpunk" author Bruce Sterling back in the early 90's. It might have been his book The Hacker Crackdown or maybe an article in Omni (R.I.P. ) or Wired. Anyway, he was doing a really brief "What are these role-playing games?" passage to lay the scene for non-nerd readers and in it he drops the bomb that d10s originated with WWII-era Japanese sailors and Yakuza. I have never read this anywhere before or since. Anyone know anything about this?

[foxroe]

From Wikipedia:

The pentagonal trapezohedron was patented for use as a gaming die in 1906. [U.S. Patent 809,293] It is convenient for role-playing games that use percentile-based skills; however, it is not strictly necessary since the outcome of a twenty-sided die can be divided ten ways and is sometimes preferred due to its regular shape.

Subsequent patents on ten-sided dice have made minor refinements to the basic design by rounding or truncating the edges. This enables the die to tumble so that the outcome is less predictable. One such refinement became notorious at the 1980 Gen Con [Greg Peterson about Gen Con 1980: The big news of the year was that someone had 'invented' the ten-sided die.] when the patent was incorrectly thought to cover ten-sided dice in general.

[Finarvyn]

Oct 10, 2008 16:05:18 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Fin, do you remember when 10-siders first started being used?

I started gaming in late 1980, and we used 10-siders right from the start.

I note that my 1978 Gamma World rulebook mentions 4-, 6-, 8-, 12-, and 20-sided dice, but NOT 10-sided dice.

Near the beginning of the DMG is a small drawing of 5 different sorts of dice. The 10-sider is missing.

Can we conclude that 10-siders had their origin in 1979-80?

Heck, now that the thread has been necro'ed I might as well post in response to a question that I don't recall seeing in 2008. :-)

I know that the dice I had in 1975 did not have the d10. Those were the "rainbow" colors that Dave mentioned (yellow d4, orange d6, green d8, blue d12 and white d20) and I still have several sets of those. Those dice are the ones where folks would ink half of the numbers on the d20 since those were numbered 0-9 twice. Those are still some of my favorite sets, by the way, and I bought some hard plastic Chessex dice in that same color scheme so that I could retire my original soft sets.

I know that my first set of "high impact" dice (i.e. "not cheap plastic") were from around 1980 or so. I got them from my sister for my birthday and I still own the set. They were a basic set of five dice and didn't have a d10 but instead had a d20 numbered 0-9 twice. The annoying thing here is that, unlike my original soft plastic dice, these didn't take to marking well so I ended up using my old d20's instead of the 0-9 d20's.

The earliest I can recall seeing the d10 (and the "tens" d10 which was numbered 00, 10, 20, 30...) would have been the matching cheap plastic dice from the Holmes basic set. I know that the early Holmes sets had the rainbow poly sets, then they ran out and had to issue cardboard chits instead of dice, then the dice returned with matching cheap plastic sets. I think those matching cheap plastic sets had the d10 in them, if I recall correctly.

[tkdco2]

Apr 20, 2017 10:48:06 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

*bump*

/casts Thread Necromancy spell...

I have a new blog post on an RPG artifact of the '70s, the marked 20-sided die - to turn it into a die that rolls 1-20:

zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/04/marked-20-sided-die.html



(Wow, the previous poster in this thread was Dave Arneson....! Have we archived all his posts here?)

That's what I did to my d20.

[Stormcrow]

If it gives appropriately random results, who gives a crap whether it's a regular solid or not?

[Zenopus]

*bump*

Here's a new post showing the Creative Publications packaging for that familiar dice set. It's unclear if TSR ever sold them this way or not, but these were found with a White Box OD&D set.

zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/11/dice-of-gods.html

[jcstephens]

I got my first pair of d10s with SPI's Commando, that would have been around 1980. I still have them in my dicebox.