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Post by tombowings on Dec 2, 2020 2:40:53 GMT -6
I've never been completely happy with the OD&D descriptions of Dispel Evil and Protection from Evil. How do you run those spells in your own game?
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Post by Piper on Dec 2, 2020 3:45:05 GMT -6
I've never been completely happy with the OD&D descriptions of Dispel Evil and Protection from Evil. How do you run those spells in your own game? I run my game with plainly drawn lines between good and evil. IOW (for example) I wouldn't have a bunch of cute baby yodas goblins for the Lawful Cleric to agonize over killing or not. The bad guys are pretty awful and the good guys are pretty heroic. So, I find adjudicating those spells fairly easy.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 2, 2020 3:59:59 GMT -6
I should be more specific. I want Protection from Evil to be this: Unfortunately, Protection from Evil just feels like little bonus to AC and saving throws. I would rather have something short and intense, not weak and long-lasting.
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Post by Piper on Dec 2, 2020 4:10:26 GMT -6
I should be more specific. Oops! Ha-ha! Well, I feel a bit silly but at least it got you to post that excellent picture!
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Post by Piper on Dec 2, 2020 4:17:20 GMT -6
I've always pictured it as a pure, bright glow such as Tolkien described Galadriel's light used to great effect by Samwise versus Shelob.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 2, 2020 4:59:05 GMT -6
I want Protection from Evil to be this: Protection from Evil: This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters <<so "enchanted monsters" presumably including Elementals, Balrogs, Invisible Stalkers and anything else conjured/enchanted are kept out, kinda like the illustration above>>. It also <<note "also", so this is in addition to keeping enchanted monsters out>> serves as an "armor" from various evil attacks .... taking -1 from hit dice of evil opponents <<so "evil" (or chaotic) monsters who are not already kept out (and so are not of the "enchanted" type) nevertheless have their attack capability reduced by 1 HD, potentially raising their THAC2 in fantastic combat and certainly reducing their number of attacks in normal combat. Hence, orcs and the like could attack as 0 HD monsters, potentially having no effective attack at all. Alternatively, a group of 4 orcs might get 3 rather than 4 normal attacks>>. (Note that this spell is not cumulative in effect with magic armor and rings <<implying that this is also the way magic armor and rings work, which, as it turns out, is exactly what the magic armor description says (M&T p31)>>, although it will continue to keep out enchanted monsters <<reinforcing the first point that enchanted monsters are simply kept out>>).
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Post by linebeck on Dec 2, 2020 14:09:40 GMT -6
I should be more specific. I want Protection from Evil to be this: Unfortunately, Protection from Evil just feels like little bonus to AC and saving throws. I would rather have something short and intense, not weak and long-lasting. Remember the protection from evil as written offers complete protection (i.e. "keeps out attacks") from enchanted monsters and in addition serves as "armor" against evil attacks by taking -1 from the HD of evil opponents (not by providing an armor class bonus). Are goblins enchanted creatures? What about trolls? How about vampires? My answer is yes. In fact, I would house rule that anything that one would not encounter in the "real" world in is de facto an "enchanted creature." Further any evil humans of 1 HD or less are effectively unable to attack because the spell shoves them of the attack matrix (no 0 HD attacks in OD&D). In sum, if you play as written, it is a very powerful spell. Coupled with protection from normal missiles and the magic user can walk through most battlefields unharmed.
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Post by linebeck on Dec 2, 2020 14:12:35 GMT -6
I want Protection from Evil to be this: Protection from Evil: This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters <<so "enchanted monsters" presumably including Elementals, Balrogs, Invisible Stalkers and anything else conjured/enchanted are kept out, kinda like the illustration above>>. It also <<note "also", so this is in addition to keeping enchanted monsters out>> serves as an "armor" from various evil attacks .... taking -1 from hit dice of evil opponents <<so "evil" (or chaotic) monsters who are not already kept out (and so are not of the "enchanted" type) nevertheless have their attack capability reduced by 1 HD, potentially raising their THAC2 in fantastic combat and certainly reducing their number of attacks in normal combat. Hence, orcs and the like could attack as 0 HD monsters, potentially having no effective attack at all. Alternatively, a group of 4 orcs might get 3 rather than 4 normal attacks>>. (Note that this spell is not cumulative in effect with magic armor and rings <<implying that this is also the way magic armor and rings work, which, as it turns out, is exactly what the magic armor description says (M&T p31)>>, although it will continue to keep out enchanted monsters <<reinforcing the first point that enchanted monsters are simply kept out>>). Oh, made my post and then realized waysoftheearth said everything I wanted to say and better.
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Post by Red Baron on Dec 4, 2020 7:58:37 GMT -6
Evil includes invisible stalkers, elementals, genies, afrits, balrogs.
Protection from evil prevents contact and modifies dice rolls. The reverse is vulnerability to evil.
Dispel evil banishes a creature. The reverse is conjure evil.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Dec 23, 2020 23:05:09 GMT -6
I am not sure the -1 from hit dice would mean no attacks (0 HD) from an orc etc... I think "hit dice" here likely means "to-hit die roll". But I agree with the general point that it actually *keeps out* enchanted monsters, not just -1.
I don't think that necessarily includes any fantastic creature, though... I think it *probably* means more like magically-summoned (Elementals, Invisible Stalkers, maybe Djinn/Efreet) or magically-created (Skeletons, Zombies) creatures.
Dispel evil is described as "similar to a Dispel Magic spell" and "allows a cleric to dispel any evil sending or spell". I think it's probably more like a Dispel Magic that works on curses like Remove Curse too... and maybe would also banish 'summoned' creatures like an Elemental or Invisible Stalker sent for hostile purposes? As there's no 'evil' alignment in OD&D, 'evil sending' might mean more like 'magic with hostile/deleterious intent'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2020 7:04:14 GMT -6
"Evil sending", for some reason, registers as "invisible stalker" and similar spells in my mind.
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Post by dicebro on Jan 19, 2021 7:35:03 GMT -6
I've never been completely happy with the OD&D descriptions of Dispel Evil and Protection from Evil. How do you run those spells in your own game? generally: If a character casts it, I try to make it count for something. The power of the spells fluctuate in accordance with the specific situations involved. But I still try to make them count for something when the party is faced with evil. Evil has a specific definition in my campaign though. More specifically: protection from evil is a magic user spell that shields the Medium from monsters (this includes men and animals) who have an enchantment. Enchantments can vary, but include “hold person” & charm spells along with dead that have been “animated”. Even an invisible monster sent by an enemy magic-user is “enchanted” for the purpose of this spell. Dispel evil, a 5th level cleric spell, will nullify any spell cast by Anti-Clerics (Evil Acolytes, Evil Adepts, Shaman, Evil Priests, Evil Curates, Evil Bishops, Evil Lamas, Evil High Priests) including use of any of their magic items such as staves and scrolls. The rules are meant to be elastic, especially the spell rules. So if I can be convinced by an imaginative player that a spell will work in a given situation, then so be it.
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Post by dicebro on Jan 19, 2021 14:06:01 GMT -6
I am not sure the -1 from hit dice would mean no attacks (0 HD) from an orc etc... I think "hit dice" here likely means "to-hit die roll". But I agree with the general point that it actually *keeps out* enchanted monsters, not just -1. I don't think that necessarily includes any fantastic creature, though... I think it *probably* means more like magically-summoned (Elementals, Invisible Stalkers, maybe Djinn/Efreet) or magically-created (Skeletons, Zombies) creatures. Dispel evil is described as "similar to a Dispel Magic spell" and "allows a cleric to dispel any evil sending or spell". I think it's probably more like a Dispel Magic that works on curses like Remove Curse too... and maybe would also banish 'summoned' creatures like an Elemental or Invisible Stalker sent for hostile purposes? As there's no 'evil' alignment in OD&D, 'evil sending' might mean more like 'magic with hostile/deleterious intent'. There is no evil alignment but there are evil clerics. See pg 34 of volume I. “Note: There are Anti-Clerics (listed below) who have similar powers to Clerics. Those Clerical spells underlined on the table for Cleric Spells have a reverse effect, all oth- ers functioning as noted. The chief exception is the Raise Dead spell which becomes: The Finger of Death: Instead of raising the dead, this spell creates a “death ray” which will kill any creature unless a saving throw is made (where appli- cable). Range: 12”. (A Cleric-type may use this spell in a life-or-death situation, but misuse will immediately turn him into an Anti-Cleric.) Anti-Clerics: Evil Acolyte, Evil Adept, Shaman, Evil Priest, Evil Curate, Evil Bishop, Evil Lama, Evil High Priest.”
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Post by cometaryorbit on Jan 19, 2021 19:43:55 GMT -6
Good point - "evil" is indeed used to describe Anti-Clerics, so Dispel Evil could easily be a spell used by standard clerics to cancel Anti-Cleric magic (as well as curses and such)...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 6:21:19 GMT -6
Good point - "evil" is indeed used to describe Anti-Clerics, so Dispel Evil could easily be a spell used by standard clerics to cancel Anti-Cleric magic (as well as curses and such)... For some reason, this reminds me of a scene from a movie I haven't seen since childhood.
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Post by dicebro on Jan 23, 2021 8:21:21 GMT -6
Those look like hold person spells, heh. Or rather...Hold Numbskull.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 8:30:31 GMT -6
Those look like hold person spells, heh. Or rather...Hold Numbskull. We're witnessing wizardry levels we never thought were possible. There's not a name for the level of mastery we've just beheld.
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Post by dicebro on Jan 23, 2021 8:48:31 GMT -6
Indubitably, but only a new edition would give these powers the credit they deserve.
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Post by clownboss on Jan 29, 2021 8:51:39 GMT -6
Protection from Evil: In my campaign, the evil in this spell means "violence towards oneself with the intent to maim", so the spell would give you +1 AC from any source of violence, whether they're evil Goblins, chaotic good merry men who rob from the rich, or a lawful good Patriarch. It also doesn't matter what alignment the spellcaster is. Really, I should call this spell "Protection from Harm."
I like dicebro's definition of "enchanted monster".
Dispel Evil: Neutralises spells made with an evil(or good, for the opposite) intent, such as fixed doors or mind control. I think I've heard somewhere that this dispel is only meant to be temporary though.
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