Town, cities, and villages

[tombowings]

How do you determine the population and composition of towns, cities, and villages? Do the LLBs have any advice?

[Piper]

Nov 19, 2020 22:46:11 GMT -6 tombowings said:

How do you determine the population and composition of towns, cities, and villages? Do the LLBs have any advice?

OD&D doesn’t but AD&D has good guidelines in the DMG.

[retrorob]

Piper
Not accurate.

Villages in OD&D have population of 100-400 inhabitants [vol. III, p. 24]. According to the Guidon draft, 2/3 of settlements are villages:

The small dwellings on the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL mapboard will represent towns and villages. Die 1-6: 1 = hamlet, 2-5 progressively bigger villages, 6 = walled town.

So hamlets would be up to 100 (perhaps roll 1d100) and walled towns over, maybe 400 + (1d6 x 100)? I like to keep my campaigns low profile, so no big cities, developed kingdoms etc. I've always had a feeling that default D&D-world is a desolated, depopulated place, just like in Vance's "Dying Earth" series. Hardly 2-8 villages per barony by no means resembles medieval standards.

You may also check The First Fantasy Campaign for some numbers.

[Piper]

Nov 20, 2020 8:07:23 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Piper
Not accurate.

No argument intended, so please forgive, but yes they are. DMG p. 173 in the lower right hand corner of the page. Every settlement size he requested is listed there with population figures.

Take care, fellow gamer.

[retrorob]

I've meant OD&D:
- Do the LLBs have any advice?
- OD&D doesn’t but (...)

Of course you're right about AD&D, I could make myself more clear. Cheers!

[Piper]

Nov 20, 2020 8:50:09 GMT -6 retrorob said:

I've meant OD&D:

Ah! My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

[tetramorph]

Only the number of villages per barony and the relative population thereof.

I've made up my own system:

Villages 100-400
Towns 500-800
Cities 1K-4K

This allows me to label towns 1-10 in level.

Then I can have things like a settlement hedge against magic. Everyone gets a bonus to their saving throws against magic based upon settlement level. Even if you want it to happen to you there is still a target-20 chance that the spell will still fail in a settlement.

This helps me make sense of why high level magic users don't just rule the world with blind charmed followers flying around in monkey suits and tutus.

[talysman]

I don't define hamlet, village, town, or city based entirely by population, since there aren't strict definitions in the real world. It's more a matter of function: why does the settlement exist, what services does it provide, etc.

Hamlet basically means "little village". I use it as the name for the smallest recognizable settlement, usually based around something locals need for support, like a mill for farmers, lumber mill for loggers, smelter for miners. It might also be linked to an important crossroads and focus more on travelers than on locals. There's no fixed market in a settlement this small.

Village technically comes from villa and is a settlement for the people who work at a villa or manor. In some cases, the distinction between hamlets and villages is whether they have a church or not. I made the distinction between whether they have a weekly market or not.

I define Towns as having a daily market in a permanent dedicated space. They may also have simple defenses (palisade, moat, mounds) as opposed to walls. Instead of one church, one inn, etc., they have 1-3 of each. Cities are bigger, have actual wall or other fortifications, and are basically multiple towns or villages merged together.

I don't give population figures for settlements, because who cares? Instead, I give them dice ratings (hamlet = 1d6/2, village = 1d6, town = 2d6, city = 3d6.) Roll that many dice to determine how many different trades or services are available, besides the main service. This will also be the number of hirelings/common laborers available per week, adjusted down based on how many of your hirelings survived the last expedition. Subtract 1 die from the rating for the number of NPCs practicing each trade (minimum 1 NPC per trade.) Subtract 2 dice for the number of inns and taverns.

I had a long series of posts on my blog about improvising settlement details. This post is a good starting point for the curious, but I eventually plan on rewriting a lot of it.

[rustic313]

As has been mentioned, villages have 100-400 people... presumably 250 on average.

Thus an average barony has 250 x 5 = 1250 rural residents.

Historically about 5%+/-3 of the population was urban. This means 19 rural residents support about 1 urban dweller. Our barony can support 65 urban citizens. This would be at most a small castle town huddled at the foot of the stronghold. Even if you double the urban/rural ratios it makes little difference to the setting.

A decent sized town of 2000 inhabitants would need either 30 rural strongholds to supply it, an excellent trade route to some foreign grain supply (probably maritime), or magic.

I've taken to assuming on the outdoor survival map that the urban towns near the center are largely supplied via the river system, with food imports coming from somewhere off the map. The town's near the map edge are likewise supplied from off map or from some dark secret magic that is best not inquired into...

[Piper]

Nov 20, 2020 15:03:41 GMT -6 talysman said:

I don't define hamlet (snip)

Well, sure ... there are many paths to the goal of fun. Thanks for sharing your way.

[delta]

For me, I go:

• Villages: 100-600
• Towns: 1,000-6,000
• Cities: 10,000-60,000

Here's a blog post with some research where I decided to go with that.

[linebeck]

Nov 20, 2020 8:07:23 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Piper
Not accurate.

Villages in OD&D have population of 100-400 inhabitants [vol. III, p. 24]. According to the Guidon draft, 2/3 of settlements are villages:

The small dwellings on the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL mapboard will represent towns and villages. Die 1-6: 1 = hamlet, 2-5 progressively bigger villages, 6 = walled town.

So hamlets would be up to 100 (perhaps roll 1d100) and walled towns over, maybe 400 + (1d6 x 100)? I like to keep my campaigns low profile, so no big cities, developed kingdoms etc. I've always had a feeling that default D&D-world is a desolated, depopulated place, just like in Vance's "Dying Earth" series. Hardly 2-8 villages per barony by no means resembles medieval standards.

You may also check The First Fantasy Campaign for some numbers.

When is someone going to publish the Guidon draft?

[Deleted]

The question must be begged - does the "angry villager rule" only apply in actual villages, or could the referee adjudicate an "angry townie" rule?

[cometaryorbit]

Nov 20, 2020 8:07:23 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Hardly 2-8 villages per barony by no means resembles medieval standards.

True - though this may be intended to be for a barony newly carved out of wilderness; it does say that -

"Successful investments will also have the effect of increasing the population of the investor’s territory, providing the area of investment does not specifically preclude such"

But one would really expect it to be more thinly populated than the RL Middle Ages, as some resources will be claimed by monsters that weren't a factor in RL.

Also, there are castles and towns to be encountered in 'the wilderness', as well as various random "Men" encounters -- Bandits and such are presumably dependent on civilization, but some of these, like Nomads in the desert and Cavemen in the mountains, may mean that there's a significant part of the human population which is not really connected to settlements.

[waysoftheearth]

Also pretty hard to go past Cumberlands Games' Medieval Demographics Made Easy.

[retrorob]

Late medieval countryside was a densely populated area. For example: in my region (Poland, central Europe) in XIII-XV century a standard village had 30 "Hufen" (old land/surface measurement). Each peasant had a farm of 1 "Hufe", what gives ca. 150-180 people for a village. Of course there were smaller and bigger villages.  In the Duchy of Wrocław (Silesia, Poland) around 1425 there were 213 villages and few cities, walled towns and castles, including Wrocław with a population of ca. 20 000. And the Duchy of Wrocław was only one of many duchies in the Silesia region.

[Piper]

Nov 22, 2020 3:23:36 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Also pretty hard to go past Cumberlands Games' Medieval Demographics Made Easy.

Nice! I snagged this one.

[Deleted]

Nov 22, 2020 6:02:47 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Late medieval countryside was a densely populated area. For example: in my region (Poland, central Europe) in XIII-XV century a standard village had 30 "Hufen" (old land/surface measurement). Each peasant had a farm of 1 "Hufe", what gives ca. 150-180 people for a village. Of course there were smaller and bigger villages.  In the Duchy of Wrocław (Silesia, Poland) around 1425 there were 213 villages and few cities, walled towns and castles, including Wrocław with a population of ca. 20 000. And the Duchy of Wrocław was only one of many duchies in the Silesia region.

That's a really good thing to go off, if we assume the 3lbb countryside is roughly medieval. The word "medieval" does appear on the cover of all the booklets and on the original woodgrain box so it's a logical conclusion, though it flies somewhat in the face of Rossi's interpretation of the world as a hard-scrabble world besieged by dark forces. I don't precisely follow either interpretation and simply ported over my Seven Realms from my childhood games, with the Greyhawk-esque "Perdition" being the center of most campaigns. Through a happy coincidence, its population density somewhat matches what you describe, though. 

[doublejig2]

Nov 22, 2020 7:18:03 GMT -6 Piper said:

Nov 22, 2020 3:23:36 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Also pretty hard to go past Cumberlands Games' Medieval Demographics Made Easy.

Nice! I snagged this one.

Same here!

[talysman]

Another thing to consider is something mentioned in one of the Runequest GM guides, but which apparently came from academic research: it takes about five settlements to support a settlement of a larger size. So, if you want a city, it needs five towns to support it, which each need five villages, which in turn need five hamlets, which need five households. Ancient or medieval households would be based on extended families rather than modern nuclear families, plus nonrelated servants, so you could figure 5 to 30+ people per household, hamlets would have five or six times that, and multiplying by five or six for each additional tier.

Because most peasants are going to be traveling on foot or with a draft animal carrying goods or pulling a cart, settlements should mostly be a day's travel or less apart. There's a good chance most hamlets will be a league or less apart (hour's travel,) so that anyone who needs supplies they can't make can get there and back before sunset.

[doublejig2]

In stride...

[cometaryorbit]

Nov 22, 2020 8:43:38 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

 The word "medieval" does appear on the cover of all the booklets and on the original woodgrain box so it's a logical conclusion, though it flies somewhat in the face of Rossi's interpretation of the world as a hard-scrabble world besieged by dark forces.

Well, the Middle Ages covers a lot of time - the early Middle Ages/Dark Ages/Migration Period might be more like the latter (as might some areas in the immediate aftermath of the Black Death).

I think medieval Ireland was quite decentralized even into the end of the medieval period; does anyone know what population density was like there?

[retrorob]

cometaryorbit
I don't know about Ireland, but for sure early medieval period fits the D&D setting better. Around 1000, 70-90% of Central-Eastern Europe was covered by the primeval forest. Scattered one clan-farms were situated on the glades with walled settlements in the centre. You can also take a look at the so-called Bavarian Geographer, a description of barbaric tribes east of the Frankish Empire: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Geographer some of these tribes (mostly Slavic) had several hundred "cities" (=walled villages). To sum up, 2-8 villages per D&D barony is still too little to emulate medieval demographics.

[tetramorph]

talysman, as always, brilliant points. I will drop "Hamlet," but grab the rest of your ideas. I still need to keep some means of determining population because of the war-game aspect of it for my campaign. As PCs advance, they build armies and go to war. I need to know conscription and fyrd (also, for conscription for public projects).

I like your rule of 5. I have a system that goes like this: PC establishes barony of 2-8 villages (manors). When he gets one or more vassal lords he becomes an Earl/Count (or Marcher, if on a borderland). He can upgrade one of his villages to a town. When he gets one or more vassal earl/counts he becomes a king. He can upgrade one of his towns to a city.

[cometaryorbit]

Nov 23, 2020 6:53:25 GMT -6 retrorob said:

cometaryorbit
I don't know about Ireland, but for sure early medieval period fits the D&D setting better. Around 1000, 70-90% of Central-Eastern Europe was covered by the primeval forest. Scattered one clan-farms were situated on the glades with walled settlements in the centre. You can also take a look at the so-called Bavarian Geographer, a description of barbaric tribes east of the Frankish Empire: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Geographer some of these tribes (mostly Slavic) had several hundred "cities" (=walled villages). To sum up, 2-8 villages per D&D barony is still too little to emulate medieval demographics.

OK, thanks!

Yeah, I agree that 2-8 villages (of 100-400 people each, so an average of 5 x 250 = 1,250 people) per barony is too small even for Early Medieval era. I doubt that's really enough of a population base to support a good-sized castle garrison, etc.

At least as an average; perhaps it can work as the *starting* population of a barony "newly carved out of the wilderness" during the campaign -- with the average already-established barony having a much larger population?

That might even be the original intent, given the statement about population growth under Investments.

A "fully established" barony, perhaps centuries old and relatively stable, could have a vastly larger population. If the 20 mile radius is taken as the limit of what can be kept clear/patrolled without secondary castles or other strongholds, well, that's about 1250 square miles. Even in frontier areas where much of the land might not really be farmable, you'd expect at least tens of thousands of people unless it was really hostile (sub-arctic or desert, etc.)

[Vile Traveller]

I tend to go for smaller-than-historical populations, and put them in dense, much more heavily fortified settlements. My average small town is based on Chinese walled villages - the fact that they're square and grid-based also feeds into the conceit that they're bastions of Law and order.

dreamscapedesign.net/2015/05/30/camlann-castle/

[aldarron]

I feel compelled to point out, once again, that there are no universals regarding population settlement patterns, regardless of what time period, because these things are culturally determined. Climate, geography, elevation and subsistence preferences also affect how people organize in a landscape. What I mean by this is that how towns are distributed (or weather they exist at all) will and should differ in different places in your fantasy world.

That said, Delta has a pretty good breakdown IMHO, and RetroRobs research is good too.

FWIW below is Dave Arenson's mid 1970's breakdown from the Drawing Your own Map section of the FFC. Note that a Hamlet and a village have overlapping population numbers because villages are centralized whereas hamlets are not.


HUMAN HABITATION
(ten sided die)
1. City of 2,000-20,000 persons (i-6 it has a keep, 8-10 has two)
2. Walled City of 1,000-10,000 persons
3. Castle with village of 100-1000 persons
4-6 Village of 100-1000 people (Have keep on 1-4, wall 5-10)
7-10 Hamlet of 50-500 people (i-2 wall, 5 keep, 6-10 open)

In the case of a City roll a dice for the number of hamlets (0-9)
(Farms have 2-20 persons living in them)(A1so check for Castles
with Village).