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Post by tdenmark on Sept 20, 2020 14:25:27 GMT -6
Page 20 of Booklet 3: Underworld and Wilderness Adventures begins the section on Construction of Castles and Strongholds and goes on to give prices and measurements to various parts of your stronghold most characters could begin building at 9th level. This was an important part of OD&D not as emphasized in later editions. I always felt this would be better as basic plans you could buy: a Tower, Stronghold, Mott & Bailey, Keep, Castle, Fortress, or Palace, etc. Then a list of additional parts the characters could construct with their wealth later on. With some references to the Siege rules from Chainmail. An essential part of all castles is missing in the illustrations showing what your character could have constructed: the 'privy chamber', or just 'privy' or 'garderobe'. Other names included the ‘draught’, ‘gong’, ‘siege-house’, ‘neccessarium’, and even ‘Golden Tower’.  More details here: www.ancient.eu/article/1239/toilets-in-a-medieval-castle/ |
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Post by Desparil on Sept 20, 2020 18:12:47 GMT -6
If we're talking about things the rules are missing, construction times is also an important lack. Even the expanded rules in the AD&D DMG didn't fully address this, giving the bizarre rate of "one week per 10' cubic section" for stone and half as long for wood - using typical ambiguous Gygaxian phrasing which probably means 1000 cubic feet (10' x 10' x 10') but could alternatively be interpreted as a mere 10 cubic feet. On top of that, to actually use the guideline means having to convert every structure or fortification into a volume.
Worst of all, with the sole exception of ditch-digging, the guidelines don't address number of workers; like, if I have 100 workers, can I simultaneously have crews building a keep, a barbican, a curtain wall, a stone building for grain storage, and a wooden building for stables? What if I have 200 workers, or if only 50 are at hand?
To his credit, he gives approximate total times for a few "cookie cutter" castle types, but you're still on your own for any non-standard additions, standalone watchtowers, military outposts, cathedrals, etc.
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Post by asaki on Sept 20, 2020 22:20:05 GMT -6
D&D takes place in a material plane where nobody poops.
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 21, 2020 6:03:18 GMT -6
how appropriate that my 500th post would literally be a sh*t post.
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Post by dicebro on Sept 21, 2020 6:37:04 GMT -6
Who is that npc at the bottom. Probably became an adventurer with a brief “back story.”
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 21, 2020 7:41:16 GMT -6
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 21, 2020 8:25:11 GMT -6
"As the work was considered unclean and off-putting to the public..." You don't say? The article mentions 16 public latrines for a population of 30,000. And I thought San Francisco was bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 16:35:32 GMT -6
My friend from work ran a DCC campaign and my PC who survived the funnel and became a Cleric had the gong-farmer background. I learned a lot reading up on that. |
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 29, 2020 2:47:29 GMT -6
Gong FarmerHit Die: d6 Prime Requisite: Constitution Alignment: any Social Status*: -2 Gong farmers specialize in waste management. They work primarily at night where they come to a house, dig out all the feces under a privy, and carry it to a dump where it can be recycled as fertilizer and building materials. These men are in high demand. They are only allowed to work at night, build up resistances to diseases, and are required to live far, far away from other people. But they are paid quite well (up to six gold pieces a day), making it worth working chest deep in unspeakable horror. They Save and Attack as a 1st level Fighting Man.  The Gong Farmer could be used as a pre-adventure career for a character. *Social Status has been described in other threads here.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 30, 2020 2:29:42 GMT -6
d**n. Now I want to play one.
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 30, 2020 22:59:23 GMT -6
The immune to disease special might be a bit strong, maybe just +2 resistance of some sort.
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Post by retrorob on Oct 1, 2020 5:06:59 GMT -6
Desparil"Ready Ref Sheets" covers "Construction costs & time required". I used it from time to time.
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Post by Desparil on Oct 1, 2020 7:53:56 GMT -6
Desparil "Ready Ref Sheets" covers "Construction costs & time required". I used it from time to time. Interesting, I wasn't really familiar with those - or most JG products, really, since they weren't in business when I started playing, and when they came back they seem to have been doing OGL/d20 System products, which I wasn't interested in. Though I think the fact that you had to turn to a third-party supplement just highlights my point about the lack of those things in OD&D. |
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 1, 2020 16:15:27 GMT -6
Desparil"Ready Ref Sheets" covers "Construction costs & time required". I used it from time to time. One of the greatest supplements of all time. |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 25, 2020 4:30:37 GMT -6
Well, I did it. Wrote up the Gong Farmer as a 0-level character class (playtested and refined). Expanded the rules on stronghold construction to include many things related to waste management. Designed some new monsters specifically for these situations, as well as a few magic items. This is part of a new series on low cost OSR supplements I've been making, and judging by the sales response people like them so far. I wrote more about it on my blog.  |
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Post by robertsconley on Nov 25, 2020 12:32:31 GMT -6
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 25, 2020 15:25:32 GMT -6
Nice work  Is it too late to quibble over a couple of details? 1. OD&D has "normal men" rather than "0th level". 2. Re: "attacks as a 1st level fighter" could (if using the Alternative attack matrices in OD&D) be read as: Use the first column (THAC2 17) on Attack Matrix 1 with a +1 adjustment versus normal types (due to the veteran's 1+1 HD). Perhaps more appropriate (for OD&D) to use: "attacks as a normal man"? |
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Post by delta on Nov 26, 2020 0:57:42 GMT -6
1. OD&D has "normal men" rather than "0th level". "0 Level" does appear in the OD&D Swords & Spells supplement (given a new row in the attack tables, but otherwise synonymous with "normal man"). |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 26, 2020 1:06:55 GMT -6
Nice work Is it too late to quibble over a couple of details? 1. OD&D has "normal men" rather than "0th level". We're still quibbling over a book published in 1974, so no I'd say it's never too late. While I agree with #1, 0 level has become a common shorthand in many OSR books. It does distinguish it from a normal man and someone on a career path to becoming an adventurer. 2. Re: "attacks as a 1st level fighter" could (if using the Alternative attack matrices in OD&D) be read as: Use the first column (THAC2 17) on Attack Matrix 1 with a +1 adjustment versus normal types (due to the veteran's 1+1 HD). Perhaps more appropriate (for OD&D) to use: "attacks as a normal man"? Good point. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 26, 2020 4:40:23 GMT -6
"0 Level" does appear in the OD&D Swords & Spells supplement (given a new row in the attack tables, but otherwise synonymous with "normal man"). Nice find I suppose I should have written "3LBBs" rather than "OD&D". 0 level has become a common shorthand in many OSR books. It does distinguish it from a normal man and someone on a career path to becoming an adventurer. I'm not quite up to speed--in case that wasn't obvious When I first read this I thought Whoa! It was a sudden revelation (to me) that "0th level" might mean: a normal with the potential to achieve levels. The whole "0 level" business cries AD&D to me, so I went and checked up what AD&D has to say about it. The main passages I found were: EXPERIENCE (PHB p106): <<It is important to keep in mind that most humans and demi-humans are "0 level". They do not have the ability to gain experience levels. Player characters are unusual and superior.>> and ENERGY DRAINING BY UNDEAD OR DEVICE (DMG p119): <<If this brings the character below 1st level of experience, then the individual is a 0 level person never capable of gaining experience again.>> Also of interest, the note below ATTACK MATRIX FOR FIGHTERS, PALADINS, RANGERS, BARDS, AND 0 LEVEL HALFLINGS AND HUMANS* (DMG p74): <<*Note: Half-elves use the attack matrix as elves do, while non-player character half-orcs use the attack matrix for monsters. Dwarves, elves and gnomes are never lower than 1st level (unlike halflings and humans, which may be of 0 level). Bards fight at their highest level of fighter experience.>> So... that "revelation" was killed off ... I think? Then I went back and re-read thomden's post and, in the end, I couldn't decide what "It does distinguish it from a normal man and someone on a career path to becoming an adventurer" actually meant..? p.s. Note the PHB says most demi-humans are "0 level" but the DMG says dwarves, gnomes, and elves are never lower than 1st level!  |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 26, 2020 5:37:12 GMT -6
A few more musings on this excellent topic to constructively ponder. 1. Should "Night Man" be achieved at the level prior to 1st, rather than at the 1st level? I.e., is a Night Man still a sub 1st level, normal man (despite his cool title)? Or is he meant to now be a proper 1st level player type? If so, how does it work with the other 1st level player types? 2. What about "Sh*t Shoveller" instead of "Scavenger"? 3. Perhaps the special abilities could include: . Holds his nose for an unusually long period. . Tolerates any stink (unaffected by skunk, troglodyte, ghast stench, and the like). . Heroic resistance to disease (saves as a 4th level fighter vs disease*). * Note: Pretty sure there is no save vs. disease in 3LBBs (or Holmes). 4. Is 6,000 XP too much? Perhaps 2,000 XP (the same amount a veteran needs to prove he's a warrior) should do it? 5. Should the Piss Boy start back at -2,000 XP and work up toward 0 XP, so that he "switches" to a proper player type when he achieves 0 XP? This would then align neatly with the other player types who start at 1st level with 0 XP. However, this would also mean he never gets to use the "Night Man" title (because he would become a Veteran, for example, at the same time). This could easily be fixed by moving all the Gong Farmer titles and specials back one level. Then it might, perhaps, look something like this (for example): | Level | Title | XP | Special | | 1-4 | Piss Boy | -2,000 | -- | | 1-3 | Sh*t Shoveller | -1,500 | Holds his nose. | | 1-2 | Gong Farmer | -1,000 | Tolerates any stink. | | 1-1 | Night Man | -500 | Heroic save vs. disease. | | 1 | Veteran | 0 | Now a proper player type... |
Just happily kicking tyres |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 26, 2020 21:54:25 GMT -6
2. What about "Sh*t Shoveller" instead of "Scavenger"? 3. Perhaps the special abilities could include: . Holds his nose for an unusually long period. . Tolerates any stink (unaffected by skunk, troglodyte, ghast stench, and the like). . Heroic resistance to disease (saves as a 4th level fighter vs disease*). * Note: Pretty sure there is no save vs. disease in 3LBBs (or Holmes). Scavenger was an actual thing people who searched sewers was called. Piss boy is also an actual title, a person responsible for an aristocrat's chamber pot. So yeah, I stretched titles a bit, but then I think all OD&D titles are pretty stretched. Great ideas for special abilities! I want to steal them. You are right about disease as far as I know, what specifics are given about disease? I'll have to look further. |
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Post by Piper on Nov 26, 2020 22:24:04 GMT -6
So yeah, I stretched titles a bit, but then I think all OD&D titles are pretty stretched. This gave me a bit of a chuckle. Thank you. You are right about disease as far as I know, what specifics are given about disease? I'll have to look further. devotes several pages (pp. 52-55) to disease. I'm not sure if it has what your looking for but maybe it can give you some new ideas. |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 27, 2020 4:14:54 GMT -6
Supplement II: Blackmoor devotes several pages (pp. 52-55) to disease. I'm not sure if it has what your looking for but maybe it can give you some new ideas. I've been sourcing LBB + GH a lot lately. Thanks for reminding me about the disease section in BM. Rereading it now. At a glance it all looks % based, to me it would be a bit clunky to have something like "-20% chance to get disease". I think disease would be better adapted to the save system somehow. |
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Post by delta on Nov 29, 2020 1:29:27 GMT -6
EXPERIENCE (PHB p106): <<It is important to keep in mind that most humans and demi-humans are "0 level". They do not have the ability to gain experience levels. Player characters are unusual and superior.>> Then Gary flipped on that in AD&D Unearthed Arcana (Cavaliers, Magic-Users [cantrips]). |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 29, 2020 3:11:33 GMT -6
EXPERIENCE (PHB p106): <<It is important to keep in mind that most humans and demi-humans are "0 level". They do not have the ability to gain experience levels. Player characters are unusual and superior.>> Then Gary flipped on that in AD&D Unearthed Arcana (Cavaliers, Magic-Users [cantrips]). Demonstrating the danger of treating any of it as holy writ while reading the tea leaves. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 29, 2020 3:38:26 GMT -6
Yyeah, but bear in mind UA is a full decade later. It's not surprising that things have moved on by this point.
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