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Post by tdenmark on May 18, 2020 8:13:44 GMT -6
I like criticism and reviews. One of the things about getting older and wiser is that you learn feedback is a good thing. They are opportunities to learn and grow and improve. Silence and apathy are your real enemy. It's not good when someone shrugs their shoulders and doesn't care to notice something you've created and put out into the world. So if someone takes the time to write a review about something I made I always appreciate it, whether they liked it or not, whether the review is good or bad. What I'm not a fan of is badly written reviews. I stumbled across one by tenfootpole.org that is so badly written I'm tempted to write a rebuttal. rpggeek.com/thread/2399050/stunt-dungeon |
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Post by tetramorph on May 18, 2020 9:42:57 GMT -6
tdenmark, I'm sure your time is worth something around the ball park of $50+ per hour. Time is money. Money is time. I think you will have your answer if you ask yourself whether the value of a rebuttal is equal to or greater than the value of the time you will spend on it. You are valuable and so is your time. This reply to your query for advice was about $1.67 for me. That was totally worth it to me. You and this forum rock! Another way that I discern whether I need to say something or not is to ask myself this question or something like it: is what I say necessary for other intelligent, well-informed, well-intentioned people to read, or will they likely figure it out on their own? I mean, some things just speak for themselves. Then I go back to asking myself about the value of my time vs. the benefit of what I would give myself and the world through my sharing it. That is how, in similar situations, I reason those kinds of things out for myself. I am sure you will know what is right for you. Hope that helps. Fight on!
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158 
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Post by muddy on May 18, 2020 11:01:16 GMT -6
I would suggest a broader cost/benefit sort of calculation than Tetramorph suggests - do you think a response of some sort will offset the damage of a bad review?
If you do decide to respond, I would first familiarize yourself with his reviews if you aren't already familiar with them. Having read this and many of his other reviews, I would say that his expectations and standards are pretty consistent (tight evocative language, playability, user friendliness) and the criticisms he makes of your work are consistent with what he looks for in adventures generally. I tend to find myself agreeing with his standards, so taking some time to understand them may end up being, on the whole, helpful. Also, typos, etc are part of his shtick, so if that at all motivating the "badly written" part of your concern I would let it go.
I, too, am older and wiser than I once was and one thing I have learned about reviewing is that it is important to keep in mind that there is a person behind the work, one who may have poured a whole lot lot of effort into that work. His reviews do tend to fall down in that regard, though again, for better or worse, I take that as part of his shtick.
More specifically, I would be disinclined to directly respond if you disagree over the criteria he uses, and would be more inclined to respond if he simply overlooked some good stuff. But it's a hard spot to be in saying "this part of what I wrote was far more interesting than you gave it credit for" or "my language is much more evocative of the setting than you seem to realize." But a short comment on his blog saying "thanks for the review, I thought X,Y,Z made this a bit different from other adventures and helped it stand out a little, sorry it didn't work for you" wouldn't be a waste of time. It draws attention to the aspects you think were neglected without directly confronting the criticisms he made.
I hope this was helpful.
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Post by bryce0lynch on May 18, 2020 11:21:05 GMT -6
Speaking an an impartial observer ...
Generally, the only response to critical feedback should be either "Thank you for your feedback" or something along the lines of "Can you help me understand why you said X ..." This goes for food, movie, or any type of review. Other types of responses tend to indicate, IMO, an over-investment or defensiveness.
Should you do otherwise then one of two things are likely to happen. 1) Nothing. The critic has moved on with their life. The way you should. 2) The critic responds, at length, picking apart the rebuttal. Assuming the critic had their reasons, and that their reasons are based on thousands of reviews, this is likely to be a quite well supported response. The creator tends to not come off well in these exchanges, be they video games, food, movies, other forms.
If you do respond you should write it, work on it, and let it sit for a bit and reedit before you post. This will help with both emotional arguments and to help with a well-reason argument.
The playing field is uneven. The creator may have done a handful of works. The reviewer likely has seen thousands. This doesn't mean, at all, that the reviewer is CORRECT, but it does mean that the reviewer probably has had more time and opportunity to fashion their arguments.
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Post by talysman on May 18, 2020 12:37:25 GMT -6
The answer to your question is "No." You will gain nothing, and odds are, you will harm your public image.
The one exception is if there is a factual error in the review, like "This product doesn't contain any clowns." A simple response to the public, not the reviewer, like "For those worried about whether there are any clowns in the product: yes, there are." But think things over very carefully before deciding that statements in a review are factual errors that need this kind of correction.
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Post by tdenmark on May 18, 2020 12:38:23 GMT -6
To be clear, I don't mind a bad review. In fact you can learn a lot more from a bad review than a good one. It is that it is so badly written and factually wrong.
Anyways, I knew the answer before posting here but wanted to simmer on it for a bit.
I'm not hot or mad about it at all, just mildly annoyed. Funny thing is the more I looked through his reviews, I saw adventures that I really like that he panned! And ones he loved that I hated. So, differences of taste.
Thanks everyone!
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Post by Piper on May 18, 2020 13:18:03 GMT -6
Anyways, I knew the answer before posting here but wanted to simmer on it for a bit. I don't put a lot of stock in reviews in general, but fan-based reviews even less so. Like others, I advise saying and doing nothing. If you feel some of the criticisms were on the mark, take them to heart and remember them on your next project. If you feel they were out of place, don't put any thought in them. It's rather common to see even the most popular works slammed online for various reasons. You'll quite often hear people criticizing the next major release of the latest popular film franchise before any real information is available on it, for example. It's just a part of being in the public eye. You keep producing, you're light years ahead of those who merely sit in criticism of other's hard work. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on May 18, 2020 19:49:15 GMT -6
Bad review?
Linear!
Ice!
Yetis!
I'd buy it now if I had three dollars!
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 18, 2020 22:07:34 GMT -6
Yeah, pretty much what everyone has already said. If you do write one, it's mostly for the benefit of the audience. The reviewer is unlikely to change their mind or acknowledge your points, but if there are errors it's important that other people (potential customers) are informed. But be very, very careful about your tone.
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Post by Melan on May 19, 2020 0:23:30 GMT -6
Different reviewers have different tastes and criteria, but a lot of adventure writers make depressively common mistakes: linearity, stuff that does nothing, overlong prose writing attempts, GMPCs, dull room descriptions, or three or four pages of actual adventure content buried in 24 pages of padding.
Based on your knowledge of the module (which I have not read, so I can only generalise), you can decide which one applies to you. There are occasionally good modules which make elementary mistakes, but possess some kind of saving grace or aspect of genuine greatness that makes the slip-ups irrelevant. (That's one area where Bryce and I tend to differ.) But there are not many of them.
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Post by tdenmark on May 19, 2020 3:38:12 GMT -6
common mistakes: linearity ... GMPCs I'm curious what GMPC's are? Is that GM player characters? Isn't that just NPC's? I don't find linearity a bad thing. Railroading, yes, but nothing wrong with a straight forward adventure. Especially in a mini-adventure or one shot. |
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Post by Piper on May 19, 2020 8:33:10 GMT -6
I'm curious what GMPC's are? Is that GM player characters? Isn't that just NPC's? It's a GM-controlled player-character, sometimes referred to as a pet NPC. They're put in adventures to either as a way for the referee to enjoy both worlds (game master and player), or to help/hinder players ( Gee, what's this lever do? Let's pull it and find out!) Generally, they're considered bad refereeing but a good DM can use them to great effect. |
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Post by tdenmark on May 19, 2020 12:37:28 GMT -6
Generally, they're considered bad refereeing but a good DM can use them to great effect. So GMPC's aren't a bad thing in and of themselves, they are just used badly by some DM's. Just like linear isn't bad. |
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Post by bryce0lynch on May 19, 2020 12:51:01 GMT -6
Isn't it academically possible that a quantum event could cause a sperm whale to materialize 100' feet in the air right now?
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Post by Piper on May 19, 2020 13:32:29 GMT -6
So GMPC's aren't a bad thing in and of themselves, they are just used badly by some DM's. That's correct. As an example, think of "Star Wars" (1977). In the years following 1977, studios were rushing sci-fi "epics" to market, causing a spate of unmemorable films ranging from uninspired to barely watchable. Or, in the wake of "Jaws" (1975) Steven Spielberg was quoted as saying (from memory, with apologies to Mr. Spielberg) "I made a well-written, well-directed, well-shot movie about sharks and Hollywood got the message ... make more movies about sharks." Like after Star Wars, Jaws was followed by number of truly awful "shark as a monster" films. Something similar happens with GMPCs in the some poorly written adventures. If you have a great idea and it involves a GMPC, don't sweat it. Put 'em in! |
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Post by Piper on May 19, 2020 13:34:25 GMT -6
Isn't it academically possible that a quantum event could cause a sperm whale to materialize 100' feet in the air right now? Yes, but oddly enough? In such eventualities said whale is always accompanied by a pot of flowers. 42 |
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Post by doublejig2 on May 19, 2020 13:43:43 GMT -6
Harr!!! Who will swear on this gp for a chance to slay that white whale or to smell these daisies?
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Post by tdenmark on May 19, 2020 14:05:15 GMT -6
Harr!!! Who will swear on this gp for a chance to slay that white whale or to smell these daisies? Ok, now you guys are going way over my head. |
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Post by Desparil on May 19, 2020 21:09:09 GMT -6
Harr!!! Who will swear on this gp for a chance to slay that white whale or to smell these daisies? Petunias, actually |
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Post by hamurai on May 19, 2020 22:37:07 GMT -6
Generally, they're considered bad refereeing but a good DM can use them to great effect. So GMPC's aren't a bad thing in and of themselves, they are just used badly by some DM's. Just like linear isn't bad. Yep. Many people confuse "linear" with "railroading". For some, everything that's not a true sandbox seems to be railroading. The problem is, inexperienced or plain bad DMs will turn linear modules into railroaded adventures. And apparently then blame the writer... |
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Post by libertad on May 20, 2020 1:36:40 GMT -6
To the OP, I don't know if you're the writer of the original product (judging by your username and the author I presume you are), but generally speaking you shouldn't really respond to reviews of your own products. The only time that may be permissible may be to correct any factual inaccuracies, but generally speaking as a writer you must accept the fact that there's going to be people who take issue with your product even if it's for the most inane reasons.
An alternative may be to give out complimentary copies to other reviewers for a more holistic view. If several of them are touching upon common points of contention, it may be a sign that it's not just the original.
Regarding the DMPC talk, I'm actually okay with them. Provided that they're hirelings and are created to be an accessory to the PCs rather than a full-fledged character in their own right. A local woodsman can tell the party about wildlife fauna and notable landmarks, but won't know any spells and isn't going to be on par with the party in various skills and combat.
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Post by talysman on May 20, 2020 16:32:31 GMT -6
I know that technically, the issue is resolved, and I've already given an answer, but I wanted to add something. If what you consider "bad" about the review is the grammar or writing style, correcting that is a very bad move. Either the writing really is bad, in which case everyone can already see this and doesn't need your response, or the writing is not actually bad and your response will look bad.
Don't dismiss that second possibility too quickly. Grammar police and spelling police frequently make grammar and spelling mistakes in their "correction". If you need good examples, go to Language Log (a blog for linguistics) and search for "passive voice" for numerous examples of famous journalists and essayists complaining about the passive voice without actually knowing what the passive voice is.
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Post by derv on May 20, 2020 16:48:32 GMT -6
The best response to a poor review is a separate review with a positive opinion. I mean, let's face it, we are talking about a single review here. And reviews are just a fancy word for opinions. And opinions are like belly buttons.
Perhaps there's someone out there who enjoyed the product and what it offered and is willing to submit a counter opinion. If such a review showed more care with spelling and grammar it would make the contrast all the better.
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Post by tdenmark on May 20, 2020 20:23:26 GMT -6
I know that technically, the issue is resolved, and I've already given an answer, but I wanted to add something. If what you consider "bad" about the review is the grammar or writing style, correcting that is a very bad move. Either the writing really is bad, in which case everyone can already see this and doesn't need your response, or the writing is not actually bad and your response will look bad. Don't dismiss that second possibility too quickly. Grammar police and spelling police frequently make grammar and spelling mistakes in their "correction". If you need good examples, go to Language Log (a blog for linguistics) and search for "passive voice" for numerous examples of famous journalists and essayists complaining about the passive voice without actually knowing what the passive voice is. heh, the grammar is pretty bad, but I'm not a grammar nazi, so wouldn't try to correct anyone's grammar. I'm not going to get into the details of what I think is bad about the review as that would be bad form, as noted by others here. I was just curious what the community here thinks about such things. My favorite commentary on critics is the Muppets skit with Statler and Waldorf. www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKXlhpeb6wI |
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Post by Piper on May 20, 2020 21:53:07 GMT -6
heh, the grammar is pretty bad, but I'm not a grammar nazi, so wouldn't try to correct anyone's grammar. Good move! The best way to make a really dumb grammar, usage, or spelling error is to correct the same in others.  |
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 21, 2020 13:28:39 GMT -6
Having dealt with A LOT of scathing criticism and vicious rejections from the (mostly, Manhattan-based) publishing industry for 25 years, my advice is keep it frosty and don't feed the trolls.  |
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