Fighting Men and Number of Attacks and Initiative

[robertsconley]

In ODnD or Swords and Wizardry, a fighter gets 1 attack per level when facing a group of opponents with 1 HD or less. Note in ADnD this was changed to 1-1 HD or less.

The origin of this rule is found in The Strategic Review, Volume 1, No 2, Page 3.



It is Gygax's adaptation of the Chainmail rule where one hero type worth four figures and a superhero is worth eight figures.

What if we extended this rule

Multiple Attacks for original edition fighters

Every combat around the fighting man can attack a number of hit dice equal to their level with a minimum of 1 attack allowed. If the creature has a modifier to their hit dice round up to the nearest whole number. For example a hobgoblin has HD 1+1/2 for this rule treat this the same as a HD 2 creature.

This means a 4th level fighter while facing a Goblin Chief HD 1+1/2 and five of his minions (HD 1-1) can opt to attack up to four of the goblin minions. Or opt to attack the Chief two times as HD 1+1/2 is treated as HD 2. Or the chief once, and two of his minions provided they are within reach of the fighter's weapon.

Bonus to Initiative for Fighting Men
In addition I been using this rules for a while in my Majestic Wilderlands campaigns.

All Fighters get to add their to-hit bonus to their 1d6 initiative die roll.
Monsters get a initiative bonus equal to 1/2 of their Hit Dice.

For OD&D this computed by taking the different what they need to hit a AC at level 1 and what they need to hit the AC at their current level. This works out to the following table.

Level   Init Bonus
---------------------
1-3    +0
4-6    +2
7-9    +5
10-12   +7
13-15   +9
16&+   +12


[jeffb]

So splitting up the Fighter's level worth of attacks in MOnster HD?

8th level fighter could attack eight 1HD big goblins, or say, two 4 HD ogres?

Or one of the Ogres and 4 of the Goblins?

Anything totaling up to 8HD?

I dig it. I may give this a whirl. Though I can see some of my players going- uh...lemme see..this guy has 1hD, how many does this guy have? No. He has too many HD, what about this guy? Or maybe I should.. I'd have to reign that in real quick.


Do PC's roll individual Initiative in your S&W games, Rob?

[robertsconley]

Apr 20, 2020 13:48:10 GMT -6 jeffb said:

So splitting up the Fighter's level worth of attacks in MOnster HD?

With the provision that the fighter always get at least 1 attack.

Apr 20, 2020 13:48:10 GMT -6 jeffb said:

8th level fighter could attack eight 1HD big goblins, or say, two 4 HD ogres?

Or one of the Ogres and 4 of the Goblins?

Anything totaling up to 8HD?

Yes, yes, and yet but if the monster's total is more than 8 HD the fighter gets one attack.

Apr 20, 2020 13:48:10 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I dig it. I may give this a whirl. Though I can see some of my players going- uh...lemme see..this guy has 1hD, how many does this guy have? No. He has too many HD, what about this guy? Or maybe I should.. I'd have to reign that in real quick.

What I would do, and I done this before for other things. Is describe the opponent as if they are really there.

So from your example of an 8th level Fighter it would go.

Me: You see an ogre and 10 goblins
Player: So how many HD the ogre look to be.
Me: The ogres look to be biggest and most capable fighters however you are going to have to find out just how tough they are by engaging in combat.
Player: OK I attack the Ogre. (rolls) I hit and do 7 points of damage.
Me: Noted and you get another attack against the Ogre. There are also 3 Goblins in reach. If you go after them you will get four attacks.
Player: OK I attack the goblins, (rolls), hit, hit, miss and dang it I missed again. (Rolls damage)
Me: Two of the goblins are dead, leaving the Ogre and the one goblin.

So basically my procedure would not to reveal hit dice to do reveal the remaining number of attacks. Obviously this give away the hit dice at some point. If the players start dithering at the beginning of their I will either coach them using in-game descriptions or just give a 5 count to make a call. Usually dithering is a result of inexperience so coaching nearly always fixes the issue.

Apr 20, 2020 13:48:10 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Do PC's roll individual Initiative in your S&W games, Rob?

Yes I have everybody roll. I will roll a initiative for NPC leaders or notable monster (if any) and a group roll for the rank and file.

Then I will call out if anybody got a 10 or higher. Resolve those in descending order. Usually it a fighter going first.

Then I will call out "Anybody have a 9". Resolve those. Then repeat until I count down to 1.

I done this for as groups as large as 13 although I had to use callers to make sure people were ready when I called on them. Typically my groups are 3 to 6 players.

I also use miniatures. While I enjoy using them an important reason is that I have 50% hearing loss and the use of miniatures cuts down the verbal chatter needed and cuts down the misunderstandings.

[Melan]

The first one is precisely the rule we have been using from the Hungarian Dungeons & Companies system. It works admirably well. Not much else to be said about it - it is a good and well-tested variant.

[muddy]

Apr 21, 2020 7:23:44 GMT -6 Melan said:

The first one is precisely the rule we have been using from the Hungarian Dungeons & Companies system. It works admirably well. Not much else to be said about it - it is a good and well-tested variant.

Would that be companies as in a military unit?

[thegreyelf]

I've been doing this forever! I've even been trying to talk Troll Lord into implementing it as a revision of their Fighter class in the next printing of the PHB. Nice to see someone with the same insights.

[hamurai]

Apr 21, 2020 14:12:55 GMT -6 muddy said:

Apr 21, 2020 7:23:44 GMT -6 Melan said:

The first one is precisely the rule we have been using from the Hungarian Dungeons & Companies system. It works admirably well. Not much else to be said about it - it is a good and well-tested variant.

Would that be companies as in a military unit?

My guess is as in "fellowship" or "group", as it's apparently intended to be a retroclone of B/X D&D.

[linebeck]

Apr 21, 2020 7:23:44 GMT -6 Melan said:

The first one is precisely the rule we have been using from the Hungarian Dungeons & Companies system. It works admirably well. Not much else to be said about it - it is a good and well-tested variant.

I was wondering about that because I saw that notation in your excellent role-playing module and wondered what it meant.

[countingwizard]

This rule originates in Chainmail, but is carried over in the section for monsters in Volume II: Monsters & Treasure in the LBBs:

p.5 M&T, "Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll. (Combat is detailed in Vol. III.)

p.25 U&WA, "LAND COMBAT: The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume I or by the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure."

Some argue that this rule only applies if using the chainmail tables.

If you use the rule, it does not differentiate between monsters, supernormal men, classes, or anything. It just applies to everything in the list above it or however you think it should apply.

If you think it should apply to players too, it's not specific to just Fighting-Men, but any creature (because it was written for everything in the list above it). You are free to put limitations on it however you want.

You then need to define what "normal men" are because that is who multiple attacks will apply to. "Normal men" could mean anything. It could mean non-players. It could mean 1st level player characters. It could mean players whose attacks are equivalent to a 1st level fighting-man. It could mean creatures whose attacks are equivalent to a 1st level fighting-man. The only definition we have is on the Men Attacking Matrix in Volume I.

p.19 M&M, "[in reference to '20-Sided Die Score to Hit by Level], *Fighting-Men: Magic-Users advance in steps based on five levels/group (1-5, 6-10, etc.), and Clerics in steps based on four leels/group (1-4, 5-8, etc.). Normal men equal 1st level fighters."

Note that this does not say 1st level fighters are normal men; nor does it say 1st-3rd level fighters. It's brief, and tries to concisely say that normal men are equal [in combat ability] to 1st level fighters. Well, a lot of things are equal to 1st level fighters too. And it's entirely open to referee judgment.

There are a few examples of "supernormal" in the breakdown, and there is much argument on which should be considered a normal man; ex: mermen, cavemen, etc. Coming from the Chainmail rules, the terminology was broken down between Fantastic Figures (any figure appearing in the Fantastic Supplement) and Normal Figures (any figure in the preceding sections). Even that can be argued over.

If you don't like the 1 attack per HD rule for players, volume I also provides a list of Fighting Capability, but that IS specifically and explicitly for Chainmail tables. It provides both the number of men in capability the character should fight at, as well as the Fantastic Combat Table ability of the character.

Given the right combination of interpretations, you can end up with a system in which characters are giving each other multiple attacks because neither one qualifies as a normal man even though they possess multiple HD.

[Melan]

Apr 27, 2020 10:08:50 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Apr 21, 2020 14:12:55 GMT -6 muddy said:

Would that be companies as in a military unit?

My guess is as in "fellowship" or "group", as it's apparently intended to be a retroclone of B/X D&D.

It is somewhere halfway. Even more so than B/X, D&C places a very heavy emphasis on controlling a stable of henchmen in addition to your main character, and eventually classed characters.

1) Henchmen are fairly expendable, and have to be recruited regularly (this is based on a very well designed table breaking it down by settlement and troop type). Every time they have to check morale, their morale rating decreases by one point permanently, so they will eventually "check out" and retire, or leave the party to seek their fortunes elsewhere. They can also come with hidden individual quirks (e.g. a good direction sense, a hidden agenda, or just a descriptive detail like a peg leg or a hacking cough).
2) Classed followers receive a half share of the loot (and thus the XP) each. Their Morale decrease is only temporary, and resets after every completed expedition.
3) Relatives (and assigned heirs) will inherit all wealth of a dead or missing character. They start on first level like everyone else, but potentially at a major initial advantage.

In practice, the game is best conceptualised as character pool-based instead of single-unit. It scales up to military units; during our last session, we ran a confrontation between the player group (three characters, two classed followers, and two henchmen), their allies (Ottilia Cardone, a 3rd level Fighting Woman and her 20 bandit followers), and a warband of 40 orcs, by simply treating units of ten as a single character with pooled Hp, a common morale score, and a *10 damage multiplier.

D&C is a six-level system, so the advancement scale is closed - once you hit 5th or 6th level, but potentially even before that, your subsequent efforts are best spent expanding horizontally, by investing into new characters who can extend your scope of activities, and replace your main hero if he or she suffers a major accident.

(Apologies for the derail)

[Mordorandor]

I played this way for a time (dividing HD among foes) until I came around to combatants following Chainmail a bit more: referee rolls 1 die for every HD a combatant has.

Combats with 12 HD monsters vs 12 HD PCs might take a while as hits are determined, but combat doesn’t take that many turns, especially when there are multiple rounds of melee each turn.

(The combats come close to fantastic monsters being killed in a turn (or two), as they would be in fantastic combat in Chainmail.)