Spell questions

[codeman123]

So does magic missle actually automatically hit in this edition? Also do sleep spells effect 1 specific target group or the entire group within that radius?

[foster1941]

Sept 3, 2008 21:19:26 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

So does magic missle actually automatically hit in this edition?

The rules are unclear. Decide how you want it to be in your games and stick with it (but note that if you have to roll to hit that makes it an awfully weak spell, barely better than just throwing daggers).

Also do sleep spells effect 1 specific target group or the entire group within that radius?

You mean if there are both friendlies and enemies in the area of effect will the spell affect only the enemies or will it affect the friendlies as well? Again, the rules don't say. use your own judgment (though personally I like the idea of it affecting friends and enemies alike -- it reinforces the notion of magic being a double-edged sword: unpredictable and potentially just as dangerous to the caster as to his intended victims -- same idea as rebounding lightning bolts, space-filling fire balls, random duration fly spells, system shock checks for haste and polymorph, high and low teleportation, chance of going insane when contacting another plane, etc.).

[coffee]

Men & Magic has this to say on Sleep:

If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which "sleep" by random selection.

That, to me, means that if your buddies are in there, they take their chances. It doesn't just target the bad guys.

As far as Magic Missile goes, I believe the intent was that it should hit automatically, but I have no evidence for this. The text seems to imply that a roll to hit is needed.

[codeman123]

Alright thank you that really was my ruling on both..

[WSmith]

I am pretty sure in our group, I think we decided it affects both friend and foe. However, i know that we agreed that sleep gets a saving throw. I will double check with my Ref' (unless he posts first.)

[cadriel]

Sept 5, 2008 19:53:58 GMT -6 WSmith said:

I am pretty sure in our group, I think we decided it affects both friend and foe. However, i know that we agreed that sleep gets a saving throw. I will double check with my Ref' (unless he posts first.)

We've been running it as - Sleep requires a save, and can affect friendly characters inside its radius.

For the record, Magic Missile is a Greyhawk spell that I'm not allowing - it's a shift in tone if you don't have it IMO, sort of like not having thief skills in the game.

[WSmith]

Sept 17, 2008 9:08:39 GMT -6 cadriel said:

For the record, Magic Missile is a Greyhawk spell that I'm not allowing - it's a shift in tone if you don't have it IMO, sort of like not having thief skills in the game.

As the player of the magic user in this game, I have to say I agree. Not having the Greyhawk spells, (or the thief for that matter) adds a certain flavor to the game.

[coffee]

I like not having Magic Missile in the game. It forces the Magic-User to use his wits, and not just be a gun platform.

Besides, I as the DM can always add it in later, on a scroll. Or in an enemy Mage's spellbook. Then you have some really unique treasure.

[codeman123]

Yes i agree. I really have been moving more and more torwards just 3lbb btb more gradually...

[codeman123]

So what spells exactly require a saving throw? The book seems really vague on these matters of course.

[badger2305]

Sept 22, 2008 18:53:32 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

So what spells exactly require a saving throw? The book seems really vague on these matters of course.

You decide - it's your game, after all.

[makofan]

My rule of thumb is that a Save vs Magic is allowed unless explicitly stated otherwise. I feel free to change my mind on a case by case basis

[coffee]

Sept 23, 2008 9:16:40 GMT -6 makofan said:

My rule of thumb is that a Save vs Magic is allowed unless explicitly stated otherwise. I feel free to change my mind on a case by case basis

I think this is as good an approach as any I've heard.

[James Maliszewski]

Sept 18, 2008 9:15:41 GMT -6 coffee said:

I like not having Magic Missile in the game. It forces the Magic-User to use his wits, and not just be a gun platform.

I'm slowly coming round to this way of thinking too, although I have to admit that fireball and lightning bolt has always struck me as far more problematic than magic missile.

[makofan]

I'm not too sure about Fireball and Lightning Bolt. You have finally gotten to level 5, and yay, you get one mega-damage opportunity per day. It seems fair

[coffee]

Also, with both fireball and lightning bolt, there are environmental factors to consider. Gary often mentioned the size of the fireball and the tendency of it to fill spaces (33,000 cubic feet...). And lightning bolts bounce back. So they have their attendant dangers.

But hey, it's a lot better than saying they choose one or the other and can throw them at will, as in Chainmail...

[scottenkainen]

Protection from Evil -- how am I to interpret this line using the alternative combat system? "a -1 from hit dice of evil opponents". Does that mean the attacker should have a -1 to hit or attack as if 1 level lower? From 3+ HD on, it makes a difference.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[makofan]

I treat it as a straight "-1"

[coffee]

Sept 25, 2008 12:12:58 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

Protection from Evil -- how am I to interpret this line using the alternative combat system? "a -1 from hit dice of evil opponents". Does that mean the attacker should have a -1 to hit or attack as if 1 level lower? From 3+ HD on, it makes a difference.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

It means that the attacker has a -1 on his attack.

The difficulty stems from the ambiguity of language; Hit Dice both meant one's dice score to hit as well as one's Accumulative Dice for Hits (which give hit points).

In a similar vein, the word "turn" was used both in the sense of a 10-minute turn as well as a 1-minute melee round (sometimes clarified as a "melee turn").

In both cases, it wasn't until AD&D that such nomenclature was standardized.

[longcoat000]

Sept 25, 2008 12:26:44 GMT -6 coffee said:

Sept 25, 2008 12:12:58 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

Protection from Evil -- how am I to interpret this line using the alternative combat system? "a -1 from hit dice of evil opponents". Does that mean the attacker should have a -1 to hit or attack as if 1 level lower? From 3+ HD on, it makes a difference.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

It means that the attacker has a -1 on his attack.

The difficulty stems from the ambiguity of language; Hit Dice both meant one's dice score to hit as well as one's Accumulative Dice for Hits (which give hit points).

In a similar vein, the word "turn" was used both in the sense of a 10-minute turn as well as a 1-minute melee round (sometimes clarified as a "melee turn").

In both cases, it wasn't until AD&D that such nomenclature was standardized.

The full sentence states the following about Protection from Evil (Men & Magic, p. 23):

It also serves as an "armor" from various evil attacks, adding a + 1 to all saving throws and taking a — 1 from hit dice of evil opponents. (Note that this spell is not cumulative in effect with magic armor and rings, although it will continue to keep out enchanted monsters.)

Which means that it is treated the same way as magical armor, meaning that the attacker attacks as if one level lower / having one less hit die on the attack matrix per page 31 of Monsters & Treasure regarding magical armor:

Armor proper subtracts its bonus from the hit dice of the opponents of its wearer.

Of course, it's probably easier just to give the monsters a -1 to-hit. It's your game, so you get to make the call.

[retrorob]

How do you judge these spells?

Haste (Slow)

funny, but vol. I doesn't explain what exactly is the effect of that spell. Chainmail (3E) version affects only Movement. Do you allow additional attack roll (as in B/X)? 

Fly

How high can the recipient of this spell rise vertically? Do you impose some cap (like 18" in EPT)?

Invisibility

As there is no duration, I pressume the recipient can be invisible as long as he (or she) wants. Do you allow PC remain invisible for many days and still has an advantage of first attack as in Chainmail?

[tetramorph]

Haste: +1 to initiative; if you win initiative your two attacks are upfront; if you loose the enemy attack is sandwiched between your two; two non-magical attacks per round and double speed during movement. Pretty powerful.

Fly: never had to worry about it. Maybe rule it like levitate?

Invisibility: ends at will or when attacking an enemy.

[talysman]

Haste
I increase movement speed and also have all Hasted combatants go first in the round, followed by normal combatants, then ending with Slowed combatants and mindless undead.

Fly
I don't see a reason to give it an upper limit. Fly straight up at half speed, max height = how far you can fly at that speed for the duration of the spell. (Probably not a good idea...)

Invisibility
I have unique ideas about this that might not fit your campaign's concept. In my mind, extreme interaction with the visible material world breaks invisibility. Not simple interaction like opening doors/chests or lifting objects, but definitely Combat (listed in the official rules,) bleeding, eating/drinking or anything else that changes the state of your body. So, you might be able to extend invisibility for hours or maybe even a day or two, by starving yourself and avoiding drinking, but eventually you would have to give in.

The other thing I haven't completely made up my mind on is the bit about the spell ending "at will". I haven't decided if this should mean that the invisible being must remain conscious, so that ceasing to think about yourself being invisible would end the spell. On the one hand, it gives opponents a way to counteract invisible opponents with Sleep, Confusion, or Feeblemind. On the other hand, it would mean a desperate person couldn't cast Invisibility to avoid detection while they get some sleep. I'll have to think about that one some more.

[retrorob]

My players want to remain invisible for many days, thus getting a surprise every time. I'm going to remind them that in the Wilderness you got dirty (mud, dust, ash etc.), so after a whole day in the woods at least an outline is quite visible.
You make sounds, leave traces and most of the animals (and monsters) can smell you anyway.


What bothers me: if you are invisible, can you see yourself?



And another one: "A spell which lasts until it is broken by the user". Who is the user exactly? Magic-user or the recipient? If the former, what if M-U dies?

[bigjackbrass]

"What bothers me: if you are invisible, can you see yourself?"

Anyone who was genuinely invisible wouldn't be able to see anything at all, so for game purposes we might as well be generous and favour the players by letting the PCs see themselves so they don't do something daft like knock over a lamp or fall downstairs because they can't see their feet. Personally I wouldn't let them see their own reflection, though, if only so I could mess with them when introducing vampires into the game.

[Zakharan]

Apr 7, 2019 4:27:51 GMT -6 retrorob said:

And another one: "A spell which lasts until it is broken by the user". Who is the user exactly? Magic-user or the recipient? If the former, what if M-U dies?

The user is the Magic-User. The spell states it ends either by deliberately dispelling it, or through some outside force--whether it's the subject attacking, being hit, falling, et cetera.

It stands to reason that, should the MU fall asleep or die, they aren't concentrating on the spell and it ends.

Don't overthink it.

[talysman]

Apr 7, 2019 12:54:26 GMT -6 Zakharan said:

Apr 7, 2019 4:27:51 GMT -6 retrorob said:

And another one: "A spell which lasts until it is broken by the user". Who is the user exactly? Magic-user or the recipient? If the former, what if M-U dies?

The user is the Magic-User. The spell states it ends either by deliberately dispelling it, or through some outside force--whether it's the subject attacking, being hit, falling, et cetera.

It stands to reason that, should the MU fall asleep or die, they aren't concentrating on the spell and it ends.

Don't overthink it.

Don't underthink it, either. Neither Men & Magic nor Greyhawk mention anything about Invisibility being maintained by the magic-user's concentration, nor does the AD&D version say this, nor were there any special notes in the DMG about this. In fact, although M&M only says the spell ends when the user wishes the spell to end, the AD&D version clarifies this as "the spell caster or other recipient". So, it doesn't look like a maintained spell at all.

Sure, you could play it that way. I mentioned above I was toying with the idea of making it end when the invisible person falls asleep or is hit with Confuse or Feeblemind. But that was me suggesting a houserule, one which I probably won't implement, because the Illusionist version of Invisibility is the version that should require concentration. I also suggested making invisibility end when the person eats, which is flatly contradicted by the AD&D DMG. It was a personal choice, and again, one I may change my mind on.

OD&D spell descriptions are very terse and not nailed down. You're supposed to think about how they work in your campaign and make it your own.

[Red Baron]

Sept 3, 2008 21:19:26 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

So does magic missle actually automatically hit in this edition? Also do sleep spells effect 1 specific target group or the entire group within that radius?

I'd prefer to exclude the spell, but if you use it consider a save vs death to avoid it instead of an attack roll.

That way it ignores armor and is more likely to hit

[talysman]

Apr 8, 2019 7:10:26 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Sept 3, 2008 21:19:26 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

So does magic missle actually automatically hit in this edition? Also do sleep spells effect 1 specific target group or the entire group within that radius?

I'd prefer to exclude the spell, but if you use it consider a save vs death to avoid it instead of an attack roll.

That way it ignores armor and is more likely to hit

This isn't a solution, per se, more like something to think about... but...

Spells are basically single-use weapons. Spell slots are basically carrying capacity. Memorizing spells is the same as selecting what weapons and tools you're bringing with you on an adventure, except that you get a lot fewer weapons and there's a chance you'll waste some (spell interruption) or make the wrong selection and never get to use some. And under the standard rules, you can't replace the ones you've lost/used while on the adventure, as opposed to looting bodies for weapons to replace a broken sword. A fighter can basically do a lot more damage over time during an adventure than an M-U.

So, you've got to balance the spell's effects against the spell's limited utility. Sure, Magic Missile autohits seem like kind of a cheat... but remember, Magic Missile does about the same damage as a dagger or arrow, and you get only one of them at first level. Why did the M-U memorize Magic Missile, when they could have bought an extra dagger that they could throw at the start of combat and retrieve later? Why did they become an M-U at all, instead of training as a fighter or thief?

Requiring a save to avoid Magic Missile isn't too bad a solution, certainly better than an attack roll vs. armor, but not as good as an attack that always ignores armor, and certainly not as good as an automatic hit. And there's also the save or take half damage option. Which solution makes choosing Magic Missile worth the limited utility of the spell?

[gemini476]

Apr 8, 2019 7:10:26 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Sept 3, 2008 21:19:26 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

So does magic missle actually automatically hit in this edition? Also do sleep spells effect 1 specific target group or the entire group within that radius?

I'd prefer to exclude the spell, but if you use it consider a save vs death to avoid it instead of an attack roll.

That way it ignores armor and is more likely to hit

Why save vs. death rather than vs. spell (like all the other spells)?

Also, it's worth pointing out that making it a Save vs. Death means that it becomes worse than just throwing a dagger against higher-level enemies (6th-level unarmored MU, 13th-level plate-wearing Cleric or FM). This is offset a bit by multiple magic missiles at higher levels, but for the low-level characters it's a bit rough (especially when the best use is easily spoiling slower enemy spellcasters, who aren't wearing armor to begin with).