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Post by cometaryorbit on Jan 27, 2020 2:18:02 GMT -6
M&T page 20, Insects or Small Animals: "Any hit will kill the smaller, while larger beasts (such as wolves) will receive one Hit Die." But by the time Greyhawk comes along (Bag of Tricks description) wolves have 2 HD.
In AD&D and BECMI wolves have 2+2 HD. Yet horses and mules are still in the 2-3 HD range, comparable to M&T (mules for example are 2+1 HD in M&T, 3 HD in AD&D, 2 HD in BECMI).
This seems rather odd. I know Hit Dice represent combat ability as well as pure physical toughness, but even so, wolves really shouldn't be up there with horses which are generally more than 10x their mass. Wolves are generally smaller than humans, especially in a temperate zone "Western Europe-style" environment, so 1 HD seems about right.
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Post by retrorob on Jan 27, 2020 6:05:20 GMT -6
I agree completely.
"Swords & Spells" also has Wolves on level 2 (equal to Light Horses). "Chainmail" (3E) has Giant Wolves (including Dire Wolves and Wargs) equals to Light Horse; against fantastic opponents they fight as two men, so it's basically HD 2.
2+2 for "normal" wolves is far too much, especially when 1st level Fighter can have 1 (one) Hit Point. HD 1 seems OK, I would assign HD 2 to the giant ones.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2020 11:38:57 GMT -6
Although I do think 2+2 is kind of high (I set my wolves at 1+1,) I don't think it's out of the question for predators to have more dice than a larger prey animal. I typically give predators a 1 die bonus, more dice if they are typically solitary. The dice do have to reflect how deadly the beast is, in particular when compared to an ordinary human.
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Wolves
Jan 27, 2020 15:52:04 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by captainjapan on Jan 27, 2020 15:52:04 GMT -6
Yeah, I think somewhere along the line, when they were tasked with writing "wolves", they were still imagining "WARGS!"
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Wolves
Jan 27, 2020 17:58:54 GMT -6
Post by Red Baron on Jan 27, 2020 17:58:54 GMT -6
AD&D has inflated hit points and inflated damage. In OD&D, wolfs have 1HD like a war dog, but they are more likely to attack livestock than people. The only time mundane wolfs come up in play is with a "speak with animals" spell, a "potion of animal control", or as potential pets in monster lairs.
You might fight dire wolfs in the "optional mountains" terrain type. Since normal wolfs have 1HD, it makes sense for prehistoric wolfs to have at least 2 HD. Fenris wolf might have 4 HD in Holmes Basic, or 12-16 HD in OD&D proper.
I also think it makes sense, and creates a nice symmetry, to treat Light, Medium, and Heavy wargs as Light, Medium, and Heavy horses.
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Wolves
Jan 28, 2020 14:32:56 GMT -6
Post by countingwizard on Jan 28, 2020 14:32:56 GMT -6
I agree completely. "Swords & Spells" also has Wolves on level 2 (equal to Light Horses). "Chainmail" (3E) has Giant Wolves (including Dire Wolves and Wargs) equals to Light Horse; against fantastic opponents they fight as two men, so it's basically HD 2. 2+2 for "normal" wolves is far too much, especially when 1st level Fighter can have 1 (one) Hit Point. HD 1 seems OK, I would assign HD 2 to the giant ones. Full quote on Giant Wolves: So in mass combat (and possibly man-to-man if against other non-fantastic opponents) they get 1 attack as a Light Horse troop (and defend as Light Horse). If they go up against something like a dragon, a single figure will give 2 attacks on the man-to-man matrix (needing 4 hits within the same round to kill the dragon). However when attacked, the Giant Wolves will defend like a Wight and roll 2d6 to see if they are driven back or killed outright.
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Post by countingwizard on Jan 28, 2020 14:40:20 GMT -6
AD&D has inflated hit points and inflated damage. In OD&D, wolfs have 1HD like a war dog, but they are more likely to attack livestock than people. The only time mundane wolfs come up in play is with a "speak with animals" spell, a "potion of animal control", or as potential pets in monster lairs. You might fight dire wolfs in the "optional mountains" terrain type. Since normal wolfs have 1HD, it makes sense for prehistoric wolfs to have at least 2 HD. Fenris wolf might have 4 HD in Holmes Basic, or 12-16 HD in OD&D proper. I also think it makes sense, and creates a nice symmetry, to treat Light, Medium, and Heavy wargs as Light, Medium, and Heavy horses. This. OD&D hitpoint and damage values pre-greyhawk are the most transparent and easiest way to assess danger, adjudicate, compare difficulty, of any RPG system in existence I would argue. Because of the d6 standard. You have to be real careful with any modules and material you start seeing after 1976, since they will likely include: - HP inflations due to the introduction the d8 as standard hp and the changes to HD additions.
- AC inflations due to the addition of magic arms and armor that are greater than a +3 bonus.
- Minor AC change due to the expansion of unarmored into AC10 instead of AC9.
- Multiple attacks as a standard, regardless of whether combat is occurring between normals and supernormals.
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Wolves
Jan 29, 2020 16:40:32 GMT -6
Post by atlantean on Jan 29, 2020 16:40:32 GMT -6
In the first printing of SWORDS AND SPELLS, wolves are called wargs.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Feb 2, 2020 19:10:01 GMT -6
Although I do think 2+2 is kind of high (I set my wolves at 1+1,) I don't think it's out of the question for predators to have more dice than a larger prey animal. I typically give predators a 1 die bonus, more dice if they are typically solitary. The dice do have to reflect how deadly the beast is, in particular when compared to an ordinary human. I definitely think predators and other aggressive, combative animals (like grizzly bear, wild boar, and rhino) should have more HD than animals of the same size that primarily flee as a defense (like horses). It includes combat ability, not just raw toughness.
But wolves get their big advantage from being pack hunters; individually they're far less dangerous than the big cats. If wolves are at 2 or 2+ HD, leopards should be more than that (similar in mass, usually slightly larger, but way deadlier individually); but then lions, tigers, etc. should be more than that. But none of these should be more than 5 HD or so, getting up into the 6-7 HD range with manticoras, griffons, wyverns, and the smaller rocs.
And I think 2 or 2+2 HD wolves also have too much of an advantage relative to armed humans too, actually. A 2 HD monster not only has more hit points, it gets effectively a +2 to hit compared to what a "normal man" or 1st-3rd level fighter needs. And in pre-Greyhawk OD&D, both do 1-6 damage.
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Wolves
Feb 2, 2020 22:57:02 GMT -6
Post by talysman on Feb 2, 2020 22:57:02 GMT -6
Although I do think 2+2 is kind of high (I set my wolves at 1+1,) I don't think it's out of the question for predators to have more dice than a larger prey animal. I typically give predators a 1 die bonus, more dice if they are typically solitary. The dice do have to reflect how deadly the beast is, in particular when compared to an ordinary human. I definitely think predators and other aggressive, combative animals (like grizzly bear, wild boar, and rhino) should have more HD than animals of the same size that primarily flee as a defense (like horses). It includes combat ability, not just raw toughness. But wolves get their big advantage from being pack hunters; individually they're far less dangerous than the big cats. If wolves are at 2 or 2+ HD, leopards should be more than that (similar in mass, usually slightly larger, but way deadlier individually); but then lions, tigers, etc. should be more than that. But none of these should be more than 5 HD or so, getting up into the 6-7 HD range with manticoras, griffons, wyverns, and the smaller rocs.
And I think 2 or 2+2 HD wolves also have too much of an advantage relative to armed humans too, actually. A 2 HD monster not only has more hit points, it gets effectively a +2 to hit compared to what a "normal man" or 1st-3rd level fighter needs. And in pre-Greyhawk OD&D, both do 1-6 damage.
My current "monster maker" tables start with 1 die for human-sized monsters appearing in 3d6 and adjust dice up and number appearing down as size increases, and the inverse in the other direction. Then, if the number appearing should be smaller, I add 1 die for small groups or 2 dice for solitary hunters, -1 die for creatures that appear in flocks or swarms, and further bonuses for enchanted or demonic creatures.
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Wolves
Feb 3, 2020 22:28:58 GMT -6
Post by cometaryorbit on Feb 3, 2020 22:28:58 GMT -6
Sounds about right to me.
Hmmm, purple worms must actually be fairly feeble combatants; they have 15 HD, but "some reach a length of 50 feet and a girth of nearly 10 feet diameter [...] able to swallow up to ogre-sized opponents in one gulp". That would make them the mass of good-sized whales, 50 tons or more easily. But a 20' Cloud Giant (probably about 3 1/2 or 4 tons if scaling up from humans) has 12+2 HD and a Tyrannosaurus Rex (~8 tons) is "near 20, let us say".
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Wolves
Feb 3, 2020 23:27:52 GMT -6
via mobile
tkdco2 likes this
Post by Punkrabbitt on Feb 3, 2020 23:27:52 GMT -6
Giants are smart and fierce, T-Rex is all muscle and teeth, and worms are, well, kinda squishy and gooey.
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Post by hamurai on Feb 4, 2020 0:38:21 GMT -6
Also, don't forget that HP are supposed to be luck, dexterity and endurance, too. A worm's luck and dexterity maybe is not that high. A cloud giant could probably be at an advantage there. Maybe he has some deity watching over him*, too... As for the Tyrannosaurus Rex I'd say the major part of his HP are endurance.
I've allowed my players to donate tresure to temples and pray for a deity's support and protection, granting temporary 2d4 HP, or a +1 bonus to AC or to hit. Success depended on alignment and the amount donated. Was a nice money sink for lowbies.
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Wolves
Feb 4, 2020 9:17:24 GMT -6
Post by countingwizard on Feb 4, 2020 9:17:24 GMT -6
Sounds about right to me. Hmmm, purple worms must actually be fairly feeble combatants; they have 15 HD, but "some reach a length of 50 feet and a girth of nearly 10 feet diameter [...] able to swallow up to ogre-sized opponents in one gulp". That would make them the mass of good-sized whales, 50 tons or more easily. But a 20' Cloud Giant (probably about 3 1/2 or 4 tons if scaling up from humans) has 12+2 HD and a Tyrannosaurus Rex (~8 tons) is "near 20, let us say". I think the T-Rex is probably the only creature besides level-draining undead, that would make me "nope" the f**k out of a situation.
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Wolves
Feb 4, 2020 12:09:01 GMT -6
Post by talysman on Feb 4, 2020 12:09:01 GMT -6
Sounds about right to me. Hmmm, purple worms must actually be fairly feeble combatants; they have 15 HD, but "some reach a length of 50 feet and a girth of nearly 10 feet diameter [...] able to swallow up to ogre-sized opponents in one gulp". That would make them the mass of good-sized whales, 50 tons or more easily. But a 20' Cloud Giant (probably about 3 1/2 or 4 tons if scaling up from humans) has 12+2 HD and a Tyrannosaurus Rex (~8 tons) is "near 20, let us say". Honestly, I don't think Gygax and other early monster-makers were paying any attention to mass and the like. They were just eyeballing it. A T-Rex has 20 HD because T-Rexes seemed the biggest and scariest to Gygax at the time. Sea serpents (O&WA p. 34) attack as purple worms (15 HD creature,) but only have 6 to 36 hit points, so they are really 6 HD creatures... that can crush ships. Where's the logic in that? I think if Gygax was using any hard numbers to set hit dice, it was probably height rather than mass. Hill giants are twice human height and get 8 HD, cloud giants are about three times human height and get 12+2 HD. Anything that isn't human proportioned gets some kind of eyeball adjustment. I find that close enough for me, too.
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Wolves
Feb 6, 2020 4:50:43 GMT -6
Post by gemini476 on Feb 6, 2020 4:50:43 GMT -6
Keep in mind that ships are fairly fragile in OD&D. The largest have 18-24 hit points, so the crushing power of sea serpents is more like 2hp/turn.
Also, don't forget the other two Big Monsters: Rocs start at 6HD but the biggest get to be up to 18, while Sea Monsters start at 15HD and work their way up to 30 or even 45! "Double or treble" really adds up. (Interestingly, the biggest "sea monster" in Blackmoor is the 25HD Plesiosaur, although the whale gets 40HD.)
Speaking of whales, I don't think the person writing their entry talked with the person writing the hit dice (or either person didn't have a good grasp of probability). They have a 1% chance of treasure per hit point, but with that many dice there's very little chance (less than a hundredth of a percent!) that they'll have less than 100 hit points.
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Wolves
Feb 6, 2020 5:43:36 GMT -6
Post by countingwizard on Feb 6, 2020 5:43:36 GMT -6
I thought structures only take 1hp of damage per hit?
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Wolves
Feb 6, 2020 7:12:49 GMT -6
Post by gemini476 on Feb 6, 2020 7:12:49 GMT -6
Ramming ships does 1d6*10% damage, and sea serpents do 10%/turn.
Catapults do "points of damage", plural, and cross-referencing with Chainmail shows that it's probably two points for a small catapult and three points for a large one.
Fantastic Sieges gives that ogres do one point, trolls two points, and giants three points of damage - given that trolls are 6HD, Sea Serpents doing two damage as well would be in line with that. (Although it'll just be 1/turn if crushing a Small Ship with 9-15hp.)
Whacking a stone tower with your sword, or even a ship, doesn't really do any meaningful damage as far as the game is concerned. Probably because if you're close enough to hack at the hull you're close enough to board.
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