Archer class for OSR?

[Porphyre]

I recently introduced my three kids to D&D. My eleven-years old daughter asked if she could play an archer (she's not into young adult fiction at all, so I cant put the blame on Hunger Games)
My first curmudgeonly reaction was to answer something in the line of : "If you want to play an archer, pick up a bow and quiver full of arrows!" but I don't want to discourage the the young. 

I use LBB classes and races and Hit Dice progression, but Moldvay style adjustments and Target20 for combat resolution. 
Any ideas?

[captainjapan]

The ranger is osr, if you have a Player's Handbook handy.

[Zakharan]

Could use Hobbits. The LBB doesn't elaborate, but if you take the Chainmail "2-for-3" on Hobbit missile fire and apply it to Fighting Men to-hit bonuses, you get a pretty handy archer.

[sixdemonbag]

I like the above answer. If she wants to be human, just give her the hobbit/halfling missle/sling bonus from whichever edition you prefer. Then maybe limit her to leather armor (if she wants these unique bonuses, otherwise, her Dex bonus would still apply in any armor.)

I'd still have her progress as a Fighting-Woman(?) since she presumably won't be using spells.

[talysman]

Since I did a couple quick variant Fighters (barbarians, cavaliers, and swashbucklers) in the Liber Zero Heroic Class pamphlet not that long ago, I was thinking "maybe I should whip up a quick archer class along those same lines?" But I may have to think a bit about the special archer abilities, so I'll post it in a day or two.

I'm figuring a lot depends on what restrictions you use for ordinary archers. Like, by default, firing into a melee is supposed to be a Bad Idea. I'd give an archer class the ability to do that without hitting their friends.

Edit to Add: Here's a quick summary of what I'm thinking...

XP, HD, Attacks, Saves: As Fighter.

Prime Ability Scores: Half of Strength or Dexterity, whichever is lowest (or ST 13+, DX 13+, if you prefer.)

Abilities: Split move and fire with bows, double short range distances. Bonus damage based on either ST/2 or Level, whichever is better.

Level	OR	Strength	Damage
1-5		3-11	1+1
6		12-13	1+2
7		14-15	1+3
8		16-17	2
9		18	2+1
10			2+2
11			2+3
12			3

Archers that do 2 or more dice of damage with bows can hit creatures that can only be struck by magic weapons, and those that do 3 dice of damage can hit those that can only be struck by +2 magic weapons.

[Porphyre]

Oct 29, 2019 19:34:19 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

The ranger is osr, if you have a Player's Handbook handy.

I think the characterization of the ranger as an archer is a later addition. Last time I checked on the 1rst edition Ranger (either the Strategic Review version or the Player's Handbook) his main stitch is the supplemental hit points, the increased damage and the tracking. 
Besides, there is the Alignment restrictions. 

[Porphyre]

Oct 29, 2019 21:22:33 GMT -6 Zakharan said:

Could use Hobbits. The LBB doesn't elaborate, but if you take the Chainmail "2-for-3" on Hobbit missile fire and apply it to Fighting Men to-hit bonuses, you get a pretty handy archer.

I had though about it, but they are playing only humans (her sister plays a human fighter named "Elf"; go figure!) 
Besides, I'm not entirely satisfied by a mere bonus to-hit, at least without a trade-of.

[Porphyre]

Oct 29, 2019 22:22:04 GMT -6 talysman said:

Since I did a couple quick variant Fighters (barbarians, cavaliers, and swashbucklers) in the Liber Zero Heroic Class pamphlet not that long ago, I was thinking "maybe I should whip up a quick archer class along those same lines?" But I may have to think a bit about the special archer abilities, so I'll post it in a day or two.

I'm figuring a lot depends on what restrictions you use for ordinary archers. Like, by default, firing into a melee is supposed to be a Bad Idea. I'd give an archer class the ability to do that without hitting their friends.

Edit to Add: Here's a quick summary of what I'm thinking...

XP, HD, Attacks, Saves: As Fighter.

Prime Ability Scores: Half of Strength or Dexterity, whichever is lowest (or ST 13+, DX 13+, if you prefer.)

Abilities: Split move and fire with bows, double short range distances. Bonus damage based on either ST/2 or Level, whichever is better.

Level	OR	Strength	Damage
1-5		3-11	1+1
6		12-13	1+2
7		14-15	1+3
8		16-17	2
9		18	2+1
10			2+2
11			2+3
12			3

Archers that do 2 or more dice of damage with bows can hit creatures that can only be struck by magic weapons, and those that do 3 dice of damage can hit those that can only be struck by +2 magic weapons.

That's nice. 
There is an Archer class in the #45 of The Dragon, but I found the tables needlessly complicated and I have no us for a spell-casting version. 

I was initially thinking about a Dexterity based damage bonus. Shield and two-handed weapons should be restricted, for obvious reasons , and maybe also plate armor. 

[captainjapan]

I see what you mean about the osr ranger. I guess I just equated tracking with hunting with the bow. I have taken an informal survey in my house. MY eleven year old daughter was of the same opinion as me. Fun fact: Gary Gygax once wrote a boardgame version for the AD&D Coloring Book in which one of the pre-gens was Krylla the Rangeress. Although monsters attacked first(no initiative roll), Krylla could precede them at the player's option.

My wife thinks that bows can be particularly suited to women because of physical strength considerations. Do you want to make a rule, however unrealistic, that men can't draw bows in your game?

Three questions:

Are you taking her only through a dungeon?

What is HER expectation of what an archer is like? Why did she want to be one?

[Punkrabbitt]

The iconic D&D ranger for the end of the 80s and much of the 90s was Driz'zt Do'urden, who famously fought with two scimitars and a battle cat.

A human fighter named Elf might bear the moniker of a make-up brand.

[sixdemonbag]

Hmmm, if you don't want any hit bonuses, then there are some other options:

1. Critical hits on 18+
2. Multiple shots per round
3. Damage bonuses
4. 2 in 6 chance for max damage on certain aimed shots
5. ??

For trade-offs, limiting to leather or chain armor would be most obvious. Maybe disallow magic swords as well, if you really want to be stingy.

[talysman]

Oct 30, 2019 3:19:00 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

That's nice. 
There is an Archer class in the #45 of The Dragon, but I found the tables needlessly complicated and I have no us for a spell-casting version. 

I was initially thinking about a Dexterity based damage bonus. Shield and two-handed weapons should be restricted, for obvious reasons , and maybe also plate armor. 

I considered making the Strength column on the damage table "Strength or Dexterity", whichever is better. An archer wouldn't be able to use shield or two-handed weapons while using a bow, of course, but I personally wouldn't ban them from using either. They just don't get any more benefit from it than other fighters. Same would apply to plate armor, but if you wanted to limit this, I'd go with the same restriction I give to all non-fighters: Move rate while wearing metal armor is half what it would be for fighters and requires double rest time (two turns out of every hour, instead of one.) Plus, no split move and fire while wearing metal armor.

But if I were restricting archers more, I would switch to Cleric XP/HD instead of Fighter. Archers would be able to use any bow + whatever other weapons they paid for at character creation, but no others. They can wear any armor, but suffer move and fatigue penalties in metal armor as described.

[Porphyre]

Oct 30, 2019 12:41:14 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

Hmmm, if you don't want any hit bonuses, then there are some other options:

Let's say that I find that "just" a flat to-hit bonus a little bit  lackluster. 

[Porphyre]

Oct 30, 2019 8:49:41 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

My wife thinks that bows can be particularly suited to women because of physical strength considerations. Do you want to make a rule, however unrealistic, that men can't draw bows in your game?

(...)

What is HER expectation of what an archer is like? Why did she want to be one?

Talysman probably is right with the STR bonus, actually: the longbow requires strengh and english bowmen had a stocky build. But the assumption that bow is a more "feminine" weapon seems to be pervasive enough that I suppose that's why she wants to be an archer. After all I'm not trying to design a class for the benefit of military history buffs ...

Her brother went for a crossbow, interestingly. 

Are you taking her only through a dungeon?

For now, yes, mostly. They are just learning the ropes for now.

[captainjapan]

sixdemonbag was right to point out the problem of friendly fire. Especially in the dungeon, I hope everyone's carrying back-up daggers or else avoid melee like the plague.

Consider 2 attacks per round combined with always losing initiative. Seems a good trade-off to me.

[Zakharan]

Oct 30, 2019 15:18:46 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Oct 30, 2019 12:41:14 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

Hmmm, if you don't want any hit bonuses, then there are some other options:

Let's say that I find that "just" a flat to-hit bonus a little bit  lackluster. 

What sort of bonuses are you hoping for? You could--assuming they're not fixtures already--incorporate Chainmail perks from different weapons. Split-move and fire, or a second shot at the end of the turn, etc.

[Porphyre]

Thanks to all of you for the input. Here's what I came up with.


Archer (Fighter sub-class). 

Minimum Scores: an Archer must have at least 9 in Dexterity. 

Prime Ability: an Archer has two prime abilities for determining experience : Strength and Dexterity. If both scores equal 13+, the character gains a 5% bonus on XP earned. If Dexterity equals 16+, this bonus is 10%. 

Dexterity also aids the Archer in his ability to both score a hit upon an adversary  and damage it with bow and arrows. This Dex must be raw. i.e. not altered by intelligence scores. The Archer cannot use his Strengh to improve his ability in hand-to-hand combat.

Dexterity	To-hit Probability	Damage
9-12	normal	normal
13-15	+1	normal
16	+1	+1
17	+2	+2
18	+3	+3

Experience 

Xp	Level	Hit Dice	Title
0	1	1+1	Fletcher
2 000	2	2+1	Bowyer
4 000	3	3	Bowman (bowwoman)
8 000	4	4	Master bowman (Master bowwoman)
16 000	5	5	Sharpshooter
32 000	6	6	Arrowsmyth
64 000	7	7+1	Archer
125 000	8	8+1	Master archer
250 000	9	9+1	Archer lord

Armor and weaponry : an archer can use all armors but no shield. When wearing plate armor, archers may lose certain special abilities (see below). They can use all one-handed weapons except the longsword. When using a crossbow, the archer keeps the benefit of dexterity based bonuses but none of his special abilities. 

Special abilities.
Split move: an archer not wearing Plate Armor may split move and fire. 
Point blank fire: archers gain a additional +1 bonus to hit when firing at short range, and shoots at Medium range like Short range. 
Rate of fire: the archers gains an additional missile attack at level 3 (Bowman), another at level 6 (Arrowsmith) and another at level 8 (Master archer).
Firing into melee: an archer can fire into melee without risk of friendly fire, but loses any additional attack and must wait until the end of the combat turn. 
Dragon slaying : an archer of Superhero level or better (Master Archer) equipped with an enchanted bow and arrow, shoots a dragon passing within range overhead  out of the air and kills it on a dice roll of 19 or 20 which scores over 5 points of the minimum total required to hit.
Amazing Actions of Archery: an archer can try actions like cutting a rope with a well placed shot, hit an apple on someone's head, send an arrow through twelve axes etc. on a successful d6 roll. 

Level	Additional shots	Amazing Actions of Archery	Other
1-2	0	6	Split move, point blank fire, fire into melee
3	+1	6	-
4-5	+1	5-6	-
6-7	+2	4-6	-
8	+2	3-6	Dragon slaying
9	+3	3-6	-
10+	+3	2-6	-

(I toyed with Talysman's idea of additional Damage Dice and the ability to hit enchanted creatures, but I finally went for additional shots and the ability to shoot dragons à la Bard the Bowmen, like heroes in CHAINMAIL)

[captainjapan]

I never thought about creating a PC class out of a weapon proficiency (well, I have but I never followed through). The level titles sold me. You're a good dad. I hope she loves it.

p.s.: does the "shoot an apple off the head" ability mean there are hit locations in your game now, too?

p.p.s.: this thread would make a valuable addition to the OD&D Workshop sub.

[talysman]

I posted a cleaner write-up of my version on my blog: Archer Class (Hero/Fighter Variant)

Main differences from what I posted in a comment above are that low-level archers can use either Strength or Dexterity to determine damage, weapons are limited to bows, crossbows, daggers, and any weapon purchased at character creation, and I added in the firing into melee ability. Some of the phrasing is a little different as well, to match up with the Liber Zero material I've been posting. It's still completely compatible with OD&D or B/X and their clones, though.

[Porphyre]

Oct 31, 2019 10:03:43 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

I never thought about creating a PC class out of a weapon proficiency (well, I have but I never followed through). The level titles sold me. You're a good dad. I hope she loves it.

Thanks, i hope she'll like it too. 

p.s.: does the "shoot an apple off the head" ability mean there are hit locations in your game now, too?

Normally no. Its more for non-combat effects. I will probably have yet to make off-the beat decisions when she will ask me if she can shoot a Cyclops in the eye to blind it or pierce an orc's sword-hand to disarm him. 
One of the great things with kids is that they're really playing "theatre of the mind" style and don't care with numbers nor rules. 

[Porphyre]

Oct 31, 2019 11:52:56 GMT -6 talysman said:

I posted a cleaner write-up of my version on my blog: Archer Class (Hero/Fighter Variant)

Nice one. 
I forgot about Domain level , but they are far from it ...

[sixdemonbag]

Oct 31, 2019 6:59:54 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Thanks to all of you for the input. Here's what I came up with.

Love it! If you ever decide to make an OD&D-style PDF or handout, be sure to share.

[aldarron]

Oct 31, 2019 6:59:54 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Thanks to all of you for the input. Here's what I came up with.
....

That was pretty cool. For me, I don't think I would use the Becmi style Dex bonuses, and I think I would simply go with the FC stat for how many shots the archer gets at x level.

I do really like the Amazing Actions table.

My question though is that other than not having a shield, there seems to be more benefit than penalty to being an archer instead of a straight fighter. Is shield loss the only drawback?

[Scott Anderson]

Split-move-fire is a nice ability. +1 at range but -1 in melee is a good trade off.

I would go with your original gut feeling though. The fighting man is already the best bowman among the Man types.

[Porphyre]

Oct 31, 2019 19:43:01 GMT -6 sixdemonbag said:

Oct 31, 2019 6:59:54 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Love it! If you ever decide to make an OD&D-style PDF or handout, be sure to share.

Thanks. I'm not very computer-proficient, nor use a dropbox or stuff like that. Feel free to copy/paste, though !

[Porphyre]

Nov 4, 2019 8:59:56 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The to-hit and damage DEX bonus are inspired from the Strengh bonuses in Suppl 1 Greyhawk. The FC is a nice idea. 

My question though is that other than not having a shield, there seems to be more benefit than penalty to being an archer instead of a straight fighter. Is shield loss the only drawback?

No Strengh bonus in melee (if you use strengh bonuses to hit and to damage, Suppl1 or B/X style)
No use of longswords (according to the BECMI/ Companion tables I use , 65% of Magic Swords are longswords) 
You need better ability scores to have the bonus XP (STR 13+ and DEX 13+). 

[aldarron]

Let me offer a different approach while stealing some of Porphyre's ideas, and some ideas also taken from the Archer/Kyudoka by David Baymiller Here

One of the concepts I love to use is that of Backgrounds - and I would argue that several of the iconic classes that arose started off as character backgrounds in Blackmoor and elsewhere, so it's not a new concept.

Is there any particular reason that an archer has to be a fighter? If you allow Mu's to use bows (I do), then no. Also if you allow Clerics to use edged weapons (I do) then again no.

So, in such a case, skill in Archery is really about a character's background, not their class. With that in mind, here is a suggested Archery Background for any character:

Restrictions: No shield use in melee, No Strength bonus to hit or damage with any weapon.

Special Abilities.
• Split move: an archer not wearing Plate Armor may split move and shoot.
• Bow Expertise: Archers use the Fighting Capability statistic to determine the number of shots per round and any bonuses they may have.
• Sure Shot: No penalty for unstable platform such as a running horse, chariot, rolling ship deck, etc.
• Dead Shot: After aiming for one full round the archer receives a +4 bonus to the first bowshot of the next round.
• Shooting into Melee: an archer can shoot into melee without risk of hitting friendlies, but loses any additional attack and must wait until the end of the combat round.
• Dragon Slaying: an archer of Superhero Tier or better equipped with an enchanted bow and arrow, shoots a dragon passing in range overhead out of the air and kills it on a dice
roll of 19 or 20 which.
• Amazing Actions of Archery: an archer can try actions like cutting a rope with a well placed shot, hit an apple on someone's head, send an arrow through twelve axes etc. by
making a successful Saving Throw against their best category.