On the Acquisition and Application of Spells

[graelth]

According to just the three little brown books, how are new spells initially learned and how are the spent and used on an adventure?

Question #1: Learning Spells
Men & Magic seems to just say that magic-users and clerics "have spells" and then it gives lists of spells. Does that mean they automatically have all the spells on the list? For example, Men & Magic page 34 says:

BOOKS OF SPELLS:
Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level. If a duplicate set of such books is desired, the cost will be the same as the initial investment for research as listed above, i.e. 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, etc. Loss of these books will require replacement at the above expense.

Does that mean each spell book automatically has every spell of that level? Moreover, "assumed to acquire" seems to indicate that the process is automatic. There is no discussion about spending actual money for these books, nor any hardship in finding them. In fact, it is explicitly implied that a cost is incurred only "if a duplicate set of such books is required" or in the case of a replacement book. That is odd, because Spellbooks are seemingly quite expensive, so obviously they cost a lot of money to produce in the first place... if a replacement 1st level spell book costs no less than 16,000 gp, why on earth should the first one be free? That's more money than most 1st level characters will ever see!

Then there is a question about whether player-characters can share spells. On the same page, the paragraph above that on Magical Research mentions:

Once a new spell is created the researcher may include it in the list appropriate to its level. He may inform others of it, thus enabling them to utilize it, or he may keep it to himself.

The implication here seems to be that player-characters may learn spells from other player-characters. Is this teaching? Or are they simply copying a spell book? The books do not talk about teaching at all, but only say that spell books are "acquired," indicating to me that there is no teacher involved. In other words, if you have a spell book, you know the spell. Thus, a magic-user could potentially copy a spell book that he finds in the dungeon as well.

That raises another question... If a player-character learns a newly-researched spell from another player-character, do they have to pay the additional cost as per duplicate/replacement spell books or researched spells, since this new spell doesn't fall within the normal spell list that is ostensibly included in the free and automatic spell book? If copying spells is free, then why would a magic-user have to pay 16,000 gp for a duplicate or replacement spell book when he could just copy the spell book from another magic-user in the party?

Initial Conclusions to Question #1
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a spell book is 16,000 gp in one instance (a replacement spell book) and absolutely free in other instance (the initial acquisition of a spell book), but yet this seems to be the implication of Men & Magic. This leads me to believe that  someone is perhaps loaning the book to the magic-user (in which case the phrase "loss of these books will require replacement" could be read as implying duress... replace them 'or else!'). It also seems likely that spell books do NOT have every possible spell in them—if they did, they would be absurdly expensive. The pair of 1st and 2nd level spell books that are normally available to a 2nd level Magic-User would cost, assuming all spells are included, no less than 56,000 gp. Assuming the magic-user is in a large party of 10 adventurers and they gained experience ONLY from treasure, the entire party combined would have less than half of that amount of gold! It seems much more reasonable that spell books only have a handful of spells in them, as this would reduce their value.

Secondly, it also seems more reasonable that a magic-user or cleric CAN copy a spell from another spell books, since there is no discussion of actually "learning" spells from a teacher (spells are simply acquired with spell books). At the same time, it seems like this would necessarily cost the player the same amount of gold as per research. If it were "free," then making a duplicate spell book would not be nearly so expensive. So there seems to be a strong argument that player-characters CAN copy directly from spell books and that this SHOULD cost the same as any other attempt to "duplicate" a spell (i.e. the base cost for research).

Summary #1
Most spell books have a random selection of spells and don't include every spell for that level. Magic-users and clerics get one "free" spell book for each spell level when they advance, but it probably doesn't have many spells in it and it probably comes with "strings attached" if you lose it (i.e. it "must" be replaced). Player-characters may copy spells from other spell books they find (or the spell books of other player-characters), but they must pay the normal cost to "duplicate" a spell.


Question #2: Using Spells
Men & Magic says this about using spells (page 19):

Spells & Levels: The number above each column is the spell level (complexity, a somewhat subjective determination on the part of your authors). The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later. A spell used once may not be reused in the same day.

This seems to imply that spells are studied before the adventure and remembered during the adventure. The number of spells of each level you can remember in this way is based on your player-character's level of experience. There is also the implication that spells may be "reused" on an adventure. There is no discussion of memorizing or even selecting spells and there is also the implication that spells may be "reused" on an adventure, but each spell may only be used once per day.

Initial Conclusions to Question #2
The implication seems to be that you can "free cast": you choose the spell you remember on the spot from all of the spells that are in your spell book. Thus a conjurer (3rd level magic-user) could cast two 1st level spells and one 2nd level spell every day of the adventure from any of the spells he knows, but he couldn't cast any particular spell twice in the same day. The next day, he could cast spells again, including spells he cast the day before.

Summary #2
The implication then seems to be that magic-users and clerics must study their spells from their spell book before they go on the adventure (perhaps leaving the spell books at home when they depart for the adventure, since the spell books are so expensive to replace, or perhaps because it takes so long to study the spell book that it would be impractical to do in the middle of an adventure). You don't need to pre-select spells or "memorize" anything. You can cast any spell you know during the adventure, up the limit allowed by your level, and no spell more than twice in the same day. You can do the same the next day, perhaps because you've had time to rest your mind.

But what do you think? Do these interpretations follow from the text? Is there a stronger argument for a different interpretation of the text of Men & Magic? Is there a quote from one of the other booklets in the White Box that implies a different interpretation?

[Zenopus]

The guidance in Men & Magic is limited, so much of it is up to you.

My take is that a MU gets a free Book of First Level Spells at first level (with all of the standard first level spells), and then a new one (for free) when they are able to cast a new level of spell; e.g. a free Book of Second Level Spells at 3rd level. The "first free copy" is a class feature, part of leveling up: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the, spells they can use, one book for each level."

Additional copies cost money, but not as much as you indicate above, because it's not per spell: 2,000 for a Book of First Level Spells, 4,000 for a Book of Second Level Spells, etc. That's the way I interpret "If a duplicate set of such books is desired, the cost will be the same as the initial investment for research as listed above, i.e. 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, etc." In other words, the cost for a duplicate book is the same as the basic cost for research a new spell of that level.

Some folks (including back in the '70s) interpret the Spells & Level section as allowing freecasting, but that's not what Gygax meant here. If you want to re-cast spells on a different day of an adventure, you need to bring a copy of your books with you. He clarified this in the D&D FAQ in Spring 1975 (Strategic Review #2).

Spells: A magic-user can use a given spell but once during any given day, even if he is carrying his books with him. This is not to say that he cannot equip himself with a multiplicity of the same spell so as to have its use more than a single time. Therefore, a magic-user could, for example, equip himself with three sleep spells, each of which would be usable but once. He could also have a scroll of let us say two spells, both of which are also sleep spells. As the spelIs were read from the scrolls they would disappear, so in total that magic-user would have a maximum of five sleep spells to use that day. If he had no books with him there would be no renewal of spells on the next day, as the game assumes that the magic-use gains spells by preparations such as memorizing incantations, and once the spell is spoken that particular memory pattern is gone completely. ln a similar manner spells are inscribed on a scroll, and as the words are uttered they vanish from the scroll."

[murquhart72]

I'm with Zenopus; Also, I consider spells from sources other than Men & Magic to be outside the Magic-User's spell-books. In other words, to get spells from the Greyhawk Supplement, one would need to "research" each spell or else find it adventuring and copy it into their appropriate spell-book.

[graelth]

Oct 22, 2019 14:11:19 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

The guidance in Men & Magic is limited, so much of it is up to you.

My take is that a MU gets a free Book of First Level Spells at first level (with all of the standard first level spells), and then a new one (for free) when they are able to cast a new level of spell; e.g. a free Book of Second Level Spells at 3rd level. The "first free copy" is a class feature, part of leveling up: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the, spells they can use, one book for each level."

Additional copies cost money, but not as much as you indicate above, because it's not per spell: 2,000 for a Book of First Level Spells, 4,000 for a Book of Second Level Spells, etc. That's the way I interpret "If a duplicate set of such books is desired, the cost will be the same as the initial investment for research as listed above, i.e. 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, etc." In other words, the cost for a duplicate book is the same as the basic cost for research a new spell of that level.

Some folks (including back in the '70s) interpret the Spells & Level section as allowing freecasting, but that's not what Gygax meant here. If you want to re-cast spells on a different day of an adventure, you need to bring a copy of your books with you. He clarified this in the D&D FAQ in Spring 1975 (Strategic Review #2).

Spells: A magic-user can use a given spell but once during any given day, even if he is carrying his books with him. This is not to say that he cannot equip himself with a multiplicity of the same spell so as to have its use more than a single time. Therefore, a magic-user could, for example, equip himself with three sleep spells, each of which would be usable but once. He could also have a scroll of let us say two spells, both of which are also sleep spells. As the spelIs were read from the scrolls they would disappear, so in total that magic-user would have a maximum of five sleep spells to use that day. If he had no books with him there would be no renewal of spells on the next day, as the game assumes that the magic-use gains spells by preparations such as memorizing incantations, and once the spell is spoken that particular memory pattern is gone completely. ln a similar manner spells are inscribed on a scroll, and as the words are uttered they vanish from the scroll."

Interesting, that is an equally possible (and much more lenient) interpretation of the price of spellbooks! I could see it being read either way... either the phrase “same as the initial investment for research” refers to the price of spells in the duplicate/replacement spell books or it is the price of the entire book, complete with all spells included.

Interestingly, subsequent editions of the game assumed that the price of a new spell book is per spell, BUT AD&D rolls this back so the price (at least at low levels) is similar to the "per book" interpretation above, while BD&D sets prices closer to the "per spell" interpretation. Thus in Unearthed Arcana (page 79), we find that spellbooks cost a flat 1,000 gp plus 100 gp per spell per spell level (and a fixed 1d4+3 weeks). If we applied this to the first level spell book in Men & Magic, this would set the price at 1,800 gp: very close to the 2,000 gp interpretation. If we look at the 1981 Expert rules for Basic D&D (page X11), the cost of a spell book is 1,000 gp and 1 week per spell per spell level, so that a new book of 1st level spells from Men & Magic would cost 8,000 gp, which is more clearly approaching the "per spell" interpretation of spell book cost. Notably, both AD&D and BD&D reduce the cost of spell books from the two interpretations of OD&D from which they perhaps derive. Holmes D&D, as you know better than anyone, didn't have spell book costs and had rules that limited the need for replacement or duplicate magic books in any case.

This is all just an aside, of course. My aim is to interpret the 3LBB on their own terms (a little bit of tafsīr qur'an b'il qur'an, if you will). I am aware of Gary's clarification in Strategic Review, but unfortunately Gary's opinion on his own text is moot for this project! La mort de l'auteur and all that...

[linebeck]

If you read it literally, a first level magic user can remember 1 spell per adventure but is then stuck with that spell for the rest of the adventure and can use it once per day. You can chose from any of the first level spells. The cost of a new spell book dissuades you from bringing the spellbook with you on the adventure.

Game-wise I’m fine with that — it makes it so the magic user has at least one useful spell per adventure because I would assume that the spell the player remembers would be in response to a in game situation requiring the practical application of same. Otherwise no one will chose to remember read magic, for example, at first level.

I would rule that each session is a new adventure.

I would also give players cards identifying the spell after they first remember a spell so they “remember” the spells they remembered.

I guess if the magic user has the spell with them it allows a reset and the ability to remember a new spell. But the risk is losing the book. And at first level you can level up by stealing a first level spell book and selling it for 2000 gp.

[talysman]

I may have already spoken to you on another site about spells, but just in case, I'll write something about it here, too.

Preface: My impression of spells in the 3LBBs is that spells are treated like equipment. Gygax and Arneson only describe a bare minimum to make play possible. Magic-Users have a list of available spells. They also have what is essentially "max carrying capacity" for each spell level, listed on the "STATISTICS REGARDING CLASSES" table. You pick your spells from the spell list before the adventure begins, you use the spells during the adventure and cross them off the way you would use torches or rations, and then you refresh them when the adventure is over. "Spellbooks" are somehow involved in the refresh process, but the books don't go into much details, since its a between-adventures matter.

Men & Magic is only concerned with the process of adventure. What happens between dungeon adventures is just treated as downtime. Underworld & Wilderness Adventures talks a little more about travel through the wilderness and building strongholds, as well as naval and aerial combat. Strongholds are high-level end-game goals, and navies or flying mounts are something you'd acquire through many sessions of play. Judging by the wilderness encounter charts and the numbers listed for troops in keeps, wilderness travel is pretty deadly for low-level characters. The conclusion: beginning characters weren't expected to travel to get to their dungeon adventures, which means they're being imagined as day-trips. There's a "huge ruined pile" outside of town, the characters go there and search a bit, then come back to home base before the day is done. Comments from @gronanofsimmerya and others here have confirmed that no one spent the night in a dungeon and each session, whenever possible, ended back in town.

This is going to be important background as I try to answer the questions about spells.

#1: Learning Spells

The default for the 3LBBs seems to be "Magic-users know the spells on the spell lists. They don't know spells that aren't on the spell lists." There is no mention of learning new spells, other than as a result of spell research. We know that Gygax was actually using the Greyhawk rules about spell acquisition before the 3LBBs were published, but they were left out of the main books, probably for the reasons described above: learning spells is something you do between adventures, and for a barebones adventure game, it can be glossed over.

There is one other clue about knowledge of spells, outside of the spell research rules: the Read Magic spell. "Without such a spell or similar device magic is unintelligible to even a Magic-User." (p. 23) So, not every spell is known to a magic-user. Some magic requires magical help if you want to decipher it during an adventure. This is also a hint that searching for new magic is something a magic-user can do, and one reason why magic-users might become adventurers.

Do spellbooks contain all the spells in a given spell list? Do they contain any spells? The 3LBBs don't say, because again this is not needed for barebones play. It's "between adventure" stuff, and we're supposed to do the imagining ourselves. "We advise, however, that a campaign be begun slowly, following the steps outlined herein, so as to avoid becoming too bogged down with unfamiliar details at first ... New details can be added and old "laws" altered so as to provide continually new and different situations." (p. 4)

#2: Using Spells

"The number in each column ... indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that
character ... A spell used once may not be re-used in the same day."

Contrary to what you suggest, I do not believe this implies that M-Us don't select which spells to cast beforehand, or that a 1st level magic-user can cast one spell per day per adventure. There's no direct statement either way, but I believe the implications are clear.

• The first sentence equates "used" with "remembered during any single adventure". That means that, if a 1st level M-U casts (uses) a spell on one day, they can't cast a different spell the next day, because that would be using two spells during a single adventure. Even if you assume M-Us can pick their spells when they cast them rather than before, the rules clearly state they can't change those spells the next day.
• Although Men & Magic doesn't say how spellbooks are used, they are clearly used for something. Otherwise, it's a frivolous detail, and there is no reason to buy replacement spellbooks if they are lost. The implication is that spellbooks are used during downtime to prepare for spellcasting during the adventure, and that losing spellbooks means losing the ability to prepare spells until they are replaced.
• There is another relevant part in Men & Magic: the equipment list. The rules do not say that players have to select their equipment before the adventure, but if a player didn't do this, but just deducted gold every time they wanted to use a torch or a flask of oil, that would be considered cheating, and would make the discussion of encumbrance meaningless. Players decide what equipment to take beforehand, and they have to decide which items they think they will need and whether they are worth the weight. There's a little less fuss with spells (all spells of a given level basically "cost" and "weigh" the same amount,) but it's hard to imagine wargamers skipping tactical decisions.
• Scrolls make more sense if magic-users are limited to what spells they've prepared and can only cast spells once per adventure. Scrolls enable M-Us to exceed their limitations on how many spells they can cast on an adventure. They still do so if M-Us can freecast spells, but it makes a lot less sense to do so. Who would spend 100 gold pieces to make a Sleep scroll if you could just cast Sleep for free and then wait 24 hours?
• If players can decide at the last minute which spells they have available, so can the GM. This gives the GM a huge advantage, since the GM will know what the players are planning.
• As explained above, the dangers of wilderness travel make any long journeys out of the question for beginning characters, and therefore imply that adventures are meant to last one day, at least in the sense of "what happens between downtime." In other words, "day" and "adventure" are synonymous in the section on spells.
• If it were not the case, and players could cast spells once a day and even change which spells they want to cast in a given day, then we'd have something similar to the 15-minute workday that people complained about in later editions: M-Us would cast whatever spells are needed to solve the problems in the first couple encounters, then everyone would set up camp for the night so they could continue fresh the next day. There would be no reason to give up and go home unless the adventurers ran out of food or take too much damage.
  
  If M-Us have to have between-adventure downtime before they can refresh their spells, it's still possible to do something like that, but there's less incentive because it would take longer. There's more of a decision process involved: do we give up and return home for now, returning when we're better prepared? Or do we press on?

You can, of course, change the rules about how spell learning, spell prep, and spell usage work. I've made several changes myself: randomly assigning spells to new M-U characters, eliminating the need for Read Magic for spells characters already know, setting spell prep times, and so on. But to me, it's clear that the spell rules were meant to be simple and limited: spells must be selected before the adventure begins and can only be used once per adventure, and can only be reused after between-adventure downtime.

[graelth]

Talysman, very interesting. I should have been more clear that I am less interested in "actual practice" and I am even not all that interested in the author's intent (as clarified in later statements, for example), but rather I am more interested in what the text of Men & Magic itself does or doesn't say (and Books 2 and 3 where they are helpful, of course). Much of what you mentioned I have no disagreement, either because I agree affirmatively with the interpretation or because I acknowledge that it is an equally possible interpretation. I'll just note some points where the arguments seem to me to be less defensible, for the sake of discussion.

1) Read Magic: The spell seems to omit a discussion of spell books, which would seem odd if they were meant to be included. The wording of the spell mentions magic items and scrolls, both of which appear in the tables in Book 2. Spell books do not appear at all in Book 2, so including them in the purpose of the Read Magic spell seems to be a stretch. Also note Read Languages, which specifically mentions treasure maps. As such, there isn't much evidence to suggest that magic-users need to adventure in order to find spells, which means the standing interpretation seems to be that magic-users and clerics gain all of the available spells in spell books automatically as they level. I don't like the results of this interpretation, but it seems to be the stronger one. I would probably change this with house rules, as you mention.

2) The Replacement of Spell Books: This is troubling me, as it seems to imply that spell books (in the "barebones framework of adventure" as you describe the 3LBB) are in some risk of being lost. This seems to imply that a character DOES bring their spell books with them on an adventure (where else would they be at significant risk?). Why then would a character bring a spell book on an adventure? Presumably because he could use them in the adventure. This implies something different than what is well known to have been actual practice; namely, it seems to suggest that you could have downtime during the adventure itself (without breaking for home at the end of the day, which seems to be the consensus of how the game was actually played). Again, I do not like this interpretation. I would rather there be a hard line between adventures on the one hand and downtime on the other. Another thing I would likely house rule.

3) Reusing Spells: I think I was actually conflating "adventure" and "day" in my head with some of the things I said above. Thus the spell slots indicate the number of spells that may be cast "per day" and no spell may be used more than once per day. I actually think the textual indication that adventure and day are synonymous is weak, however, and I don't find the argument about the dangers of wilderness travel convincing enough to overcome this. It is not even commonsensical to presume that an adventure had to last one day. Again, I think I would likely house rule this so that adventure and day should be read as interchangeable.

While I don't like the results of any of these interpretations, they do seem to be stronger. Fodder for house rules, as you mention!

[creases]

"Assumed to acquire" might have a different reading. It might mean that casters find new spellbooks in dungeons. So, I'm a 2nd level magic-user, coming up on 3rd—time to track down a Book of Second-Level Spells so I'll be ready to start learning them as soon as I become able. Taking an enemy's book will be cheaper than duplicating an ally's book.

[creases]

Oct 24, 2019 14:55:35 GMT -6 graelth said:

2) The Replacement of Spell Books: This is troubling me, as it seems to imply that spell books (in the "barebones framework of adventure" as you describe the 3LBB) are in some risk of being lost. This seems to imply that a character DOES bring their spell books with them on an adventure (where else would they be at significant risk?). Why then would a character bring a spell book on an adventure? Presumably because he could use them in the adventure. This implies something different than what is well known to have been actual practice; namely, it seems to suggest that you could have downtime during the adventure itself (without breaking for home at the end of the day, which seems to be the consensus of how the game was actually played). Again, I do not like this interpretation. I would rather there be a hard line between adventures on the one hand and downtime on the other. Another thing I would likely house rule.

I really have to wonder here: does the text imply that casters need their books on them in the dungeon, not just to study spells, but to cast them?

[graelth]

Oct 26, 2019 1:47:40 GMT -6 creases said:

"Assumed to acquire" might have a different reading. It might mean that casters find new spellbooks in dungeons. So, I'm a 2nd level magic-user, coming up on 3rd—time to track down a Book of Second-Level Spells so I'll be ready to start learning them as soon as I become able. Taking an enemy's book will be cheaper than duplicating an ally's book.

That's true. The only thing "assumed to acquire" really says in my mind is that the acquisition of spell books is automatic and unconditional. Basically, it's hand-waived. The players always get them without trouble or cost. You could narrate it as you like, of course!

Oct 26, 2019 1:59:01 GMT -6 creases said:

Oct 24, 2019 14:55:35 GMT -6 graelth said:

2) The Replacement of Spell Books: This is troubling me, as it seems to imply that spell books (in the "barebones framework of adventure" as you describe the 3LBB) are in some risk of being lost. This seems to imply that a character DOES bring their spell books with them on an adventure (where else would they be at significant risk?). Why then would a character bring a spell book on an adventure? Presumably because he could use them in the adventure. This implies something different than what is well known to have been actual practice; namely, it seems to suggest that you could have downtime during the adventure itself (without breaking for home at the end of the day, which seems to be the consensus of how the game was actually played). Again, I do not like this interpretation. I would rather there be a hard line between adventures on the one hand and downtime on the other. Another thing I would likely house rule.

I really have to wonder here: does the text imply that casters need their books on them in the dungeon, not just to study spells, but to cast them?

Yeah, something's up. The idea that spell books can get lost implies risk and the only framework for risk indicated in the rulebook is adventures (whether wilderness adventures or underworld adventures). The interpretation you mention could be one way of explaining the inherent risk to spell books.

[Desparil]

Oct 26, 2019 11:25:54 GMT -6 graelth said:

Oct 26, 2019 1:47:40 GMT -6 creases said:

"Assumed to acquire" might have a different reading. It might mean that casters find new spellbooks in dungeons. So, I'm a 2nd level magic-user, coming up on 3rd—time to track down a Book of Second-Level Spells so I'll be ready to start learning them as soon as I become able. Taking an enemy's book will be cheaper than duplicating an ally's book.

That's true. The only thing "assumed to acquire" really says in my mind is that the acquisition of spell books is automatic and unconditional. Basically, it's hand-waived. The players always get them without trouble or cost. You could narrate it as you like, of course!

Oct 26, 2019 1:59:01 GMT -6 creases said:

I really have to wonder here: does the text imply that casters need their books on them in the dungeon, not just to study spells, but to cast them?

Yeah, something's up. The idea that spell books can get lost implies risk and the only framework for risk indicated in the rulebook is adventures (whether wilderness adventures or underworld adventures). The interpretation you mention could be one way of explaining the inherent risk to spell books.

Of course, that also brings up another problem - what is the encumbrance value of spell books? Unearthed Arcana contains one answer to this question, but it's a bit unsatisfying since that came out 11 years later.

[graelth]

Oct 26, 2019 11:57:00 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Oct 26, 2019 11:25:54 GMT -6 graelth said:

That's true. The only thing "assumed to acquire" really says in my mind is that the acquisition of spell books is automatic and unconditional. Basically, it's hand-waived. The players always get them without trouble or cost. You could narrate it as you like, of course!

Yeah, something's up. The idea that spell books can get lost implies risk and the only framework for risk indicated in the rulebook is adventures (whether wilderness adventures or underworld adventures). The interpretation you mention could be one way of explaining the inherent risk to spell books.

Of course, that also brings up another problem - what is the encumbrance value of spell books? Unearthed Arcana contains one answer to this question, but it's a bit unsatisfying since that came out 11 years later.

The only answer to this question that you could derive from the literal text of Men & Magic would be that it is simply included in the 80 coins set aside for all of a character's miscellaneous equipment. Other than that, you would have to speculate!

On a completely different topic, however...

Oct 24, 2019 14:55:35 GMT -6 graelth said:

3) Reusing Spells: I think I was actually conflating "adventure" and "day" in my head with some of the things I said above. Thus the spell slots indicate the number of spells that may be cast "per day" and no spell may be used more than once per day. I actually think the textual indication that adventure and day are synonymous is weak, however, and I don't find the argument about the dangers of wilderness travel convincing enough to overcome this. It is not even commonsensical to presume that an adventure had to last one day. Again, I think I would likely house rule this so that adventure and day should be read as interchangeable.

While I don't like the results of any of these interpretations, they do seem to be stronger. Fodder for house rules, as you mention!

You know, I've been thinking about my own comment here and I believe I was too hasty. talysman may be right... an adventure is meant to be synonymous with one day. There are a few indications of this...

Men & Magic, pg 8 said:

Elves: Elves can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game.

Ok, this seems to imply that a single "game" (perhaps best understood as a "session" where all the players meet to play an afternoon of D&D) can contain more than a single adventure. A single session almost certainly covers more than a single day in campaign time. Perhaps then our typical, modern understanding of an "adventure" as taking place over multiple game sessions (an notion which I suspect was largely informed by the impact that adventure modules and mega-campaign modules have had on our expectations and thinking about the term "adventure") is not the correct notion of "adventure" in the 3LBB.

But more important is Book 3, which actually has "adventures" in the title. Let's take a peek...

The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, pg 14 said:

With the appropriate variations for ability to detect and/or see what is around them, the adventure will continue in this manner until the party leaves the dungeons or are killed therein.

Ok, not this seems to state pretty explicitly that an "adventure" is a single visit to the dungeon that ends with either the adventurers leaving or dying. Can a dungeon visit last longer than a day?

The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, pg 17 said:

Wandering Monsters: At the end of the day (turn) the referee will check to see if a monster has been encountered. ...two die rolls are made — a 5 on the first one indicates an adventure in the mid-point of the day ...a 6 on the second roll indicates that there is a normal adventure at the end of the day.

I removed the distinctions between ground, aerial or waterborne wandering monster encounters to simplify this passage. The indication seems to be that you can have multiple adventures in a single day and an adventure is the same as a single encounter with wandering monsters in the wilderness. Taken literally, this seems to imply that the first paragraph of page 19 allows a 1st level magic user to cast a spell in the first adventure in the middle of the day and then cast a spell again (albeit a different spell) in the second adventure at the end of the day! That is very surprising indeed.

Probably the most important discussion, however, on the relationship of "adventure" to "campaign time" comes at the very end of Book 3. It is worth quoting in full:

The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, pg 35-36 said:

Time: As the campaign goes into full swing it is probable that there will be various groups going every which way and all at different time periods. It is suggested that a record of each player be kept, the referee checking off each week as it is spent. Reconcile the passage of time thus:

Dungeon expedition = 1 week
Wilderness adventure = 1 move = 1 day
1 week of actual time = 1 week of game time

The time for dungeon adventures considers only preparation and a typical, one day discount into the pits.

The time for Wilderness expeditions would include days of rest and recuperation.

Actual time would not be counted off for players "out" on a Wilderness adventure, but it would for those sequestered in their dens, hides-holes, keeps, castles, etc., as well as for those in the throes of some expedition into the underworld.

The last line is actually my favorite sentence in the entire 3LBB set. It shows very clearly WHY you should not end a game-session in the dungeon... if you play twice a month, then your characters will be stuck down there for two whole weeks until you play again! I hope you brought several weeks of iron rations!

But the other implication is that an adventure indeed is a single day (or less, as indicated by the wilderness adventures passage above). We have three important terms in this section: "expedition," "adventure" and "day." An expedition appears to be a loose term that incorporates preparations and travel for an adventure. Adventure, on the other hand, seems to be equivalent to a single day. Thus the note for dungeon expedition mentions that an adventure is a "one day descent into the pits." The wilderness adventure is defined more directly in the table: one wilderness adventure is one move which is one day.

So the implications of all this seems to be that yes, adventures are typically understood as a single "encounter" with monsters in the wilderness or a single "visit" to the dungeon, typically consisting of a day or less. There is a week of preparation for a dungeon adventure, which would probably include a magic-user or cleric studying his or her spell book, but this is not mentioned explicitly and seems to be one of the many things that the 3LBB hand-wave away as unimportant details in the long run.

I really like this interpretation, as it clearly shows how higher-level magic-users and clerics are very different from lower level ones. Let's say you want to go deep, deep into the underworld and the situation doesn't allow for "preparations" or "rest and recuperation" once you are down there. The entire expedition is going to last 3 weeks at least. Not only do you have to pack sufficient food, but your DM has good grounds not to let you regain your spells. If a high-level spell caster has a total of 16 spell slots of various levels, then those are the only 16 spells he has for the entire trip! Now this might be doable, but it would be impossible for a low-level spell caster to do such a trip. High-level characters are given a much larger "range" to plumb the depths or scour the wilderness in comparison to low-level characters, who perforce must stay close to civilization.

[tetramorph]

For what it's worth (and I hope this is helpful to the conversation), I find spell research and acquisition through finding random scrolls to be a fun part of the "magic-users' 'game'." It feels a lot like Vance, with magic-users fighting each other for the knowledge that will make them stronger.

I simplify it. It is cheaper to research spells "on the known list," than to make them up or research them from "other sources" (supplements, etc.).

And I don't give a % chance. Too fiddly. You put in the time and the money and POP, you know have a new spell. It is a game, after all.

I could give more details, if you are curious.

Hope that helps.

[Scott Anderson]

Like tetramorph said.

There are 78 wizard spells that are known to exist (but no one wizard would know how to cast them all.) I give the players no hint there may be more than that.

But then when they find scrolls some of the known spells will be there plus maybe some unknown ones from a different list I keep with another 102 spells on it, so that’s fun and exciting.

(13 spells per level x 6 levels = 78; 17 new spells x 6 levels = 102)

Players can have their wizard research spells but I can’t remember if anyone ever has.

[graelth]

Oct 29, 2019 12:02:26 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

Players can have their wizard research spells but I can’t remember if anyone ever has.

That's too bad!