Origins of Neo-Otyugh, Otyugh, Brown Mold?

[waysoftheearth]

I've been digging into M&TA (Monster & Treasure Assortment) and I noticed it includes three monsters whose OD&D-providence is unclear (to me):
* Neo-Otyugh,
* Otyugh,
* Brown Mold

As far as I'm aware (happy to be educated otherwise) these three monsters were first published in the AD&D Monster Manual (Dec 1977).

This might imply:
* The first print of M&TA appeared later than Dec 1977,
* These three monsters first appeared somewhere earlier,
* These were added into a later print of M&TA,
* Ernie Gygax had pre-publication access to these while developing M&TA,
* Something else?

Can anyone hereabouts share anything re: the providence of these three monsters and/or their appearance in M&TA?

Thanks

[talysman]

This old blogpost suggests that the otyugh may be inspired by the trash compactor monster in Star Wars, but has no proof. It's just a hunch.

[grodog]

IIRC the neo-otyugh was introduced in the 1976 Lost Caverns of Tsojconth adventure. I can't recall anything about the other two, offhand.

Allan.

[flightcommander]

Hot take, but otyugh is an anagram of ... yugoth.

[waysoftheearth]

Sept 30, 2019 21:59:37 GMT -6 grodog said:

IIRC the neo-otyugh was introduced in the 1976 Lost Caverns of Tsojconth adventure. I can't recall anything about the other two, offhand.

Allan.

That would be a neat find if anyone with a 1976 print can confirm it. I only have the 1982 re-write; a quick glimpse at the monster roster in the back doesn't hint at Otyughs, but I don't think that's indicative of what might be in the original.

[captainjapan]

"brown" mold sounds a lot like russet mold to me. Unless there's also russet mold in the M&T assortment, I'll say they're the same thing. Vegepygmies are made out of russet mold. Maybe these were monsters in the original convention version of Barrier Peaks. The dates line up.

[grodog]

Sept 30, 2019 22:52:10 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Sept 30, 2019 21:59:37 GMT -6 grodog said:

IIRC the neo-otyugh was introduced in the 1976 Lost Caverns of Tsojconth adventure. I can't recall anything about the other two, offhand.

Allan.

That would be a neat find if anyone with a 1976 print can confirm it. I only have the 1982 re-write; a quick glimpse at the monster roster in the back doesn't hint at Otyughs, but I don't think that's indicative of what might be in the original.

The neo-otyugh definitely appears in the 1976 tourney, I just don't recall if they were previously published in Strategic Review, offhand. Water Weirds also appeared for the first time in Tsojconth: www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4_encounters.html

Looks like that's the first, since not listed in the DragonDex: www.aeolia.net/dragondex/monsters.html

Sept 30, 2019 22:57:12 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

"brown" mold sounds a lot like russet mold to me. Unless there's also russet mold in the M&T assortment, I'll say they're the same thing. Vegepygmies are made out of russet mold. Maybe these were monsters in the original convention version of Barrier Peaks. The dates line up.

I'll have to dig it up since I don't have the Origins S3 scanned yet.

Allan.

[waysoftheearth]

Sept 30, 2019 23:03:58 GMT -6 grodog said:

The neo-otyugh definitely appears in the 1976 tourney, I just don't recall if they were previously published in Strategic Review, offhand. Water Weirds also appeared for the first time in Tsojconth: www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4_encounters.html

That 1976 date might challenge the Star Wars theory

[talysman]

Sept 30, 2019 22:45:20 GMT -6 flightcommander said:

Hot take, but otyugh is an anagram of ... yugoth.

Also an anagram for "toughy".

[asaki]

Sept 30, 2019 19:33:10 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

* Ernie Gygax had pre-publication access to these while developing M&TA,

Seems highly likely

I feel like a lot of M&TA is based on some sort of AD&D prototype, and/or Gary's personal unpublished charts. Most of the numbers don't really match the print AD&D books, although they're pretty close to the wandering monster list from the 1st print of Holmes (which, obviously, only covers levels 1-3).

[waysoftheearth]

Sept 30, 2019 22:57:12 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

"brown" mold sounds a lot like russet mold to me. Unless there's also russet mold in the M&T assortment, I'll say they're the same thing. Vegepygmies are made out of russet mold. Maybe these were monsters in the original convention version of Barrier Peaks. The dates line up.

Thanks for the tip. I searched the S series and found references to Brown Mold in S1 Tomb of Horrors (room #21).

According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors this was written for Origins I. Assuming Brown Mold wasn't added subsequently, this means it has been kicking around since at least 1975. Also interesting that Brown Mold is named but not described in S1, which kinda implies it wasn't even new in Tomb of Horrors. Maybe it's in one of the early zines?


So it seems--if these dates are correct--that the Otyughs and Brown Mold are legit OD&Ders! Thanks Team. You guys are awesome

[delta]

I'm working on the same thing at the moment (as I think waysoftheearth knows well :-). I'm looking at scans of the tournament versions of S1 and S3 and I can find the neo-otyugh, but not the brown mold.

In the 1975 tournament Tomb of Horrors (28 page scan from Art & Arcana), the "Shaking Chamber" is area 19., and tearing the tapestries indicates that "they return to green slime" (only). Note that by the 1978 mono-cover S1 module, that location is now the "Agitated Chamber", area 21, and the torn tapestries are now expanded to "creations of green slime and brown mold" (tearing turns them to green slime, burning has the effect of brown mold).

In the 1976 tournament The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth (17 page scan), Greater Caverns area O has a shambling mound and a neo-otyugh. The neo-otyugh has an illustration on p. 10 (pretty much identical pose to the Monster Manual); brief statistics in the monster table on p. 13; and a column in a table of PC hit values vs. monsters on p. 14. The stats table says: "1 Neo-Otyugh/ HP: 60/ Hit Bonus 8/ Move 6/ Attacks (Damage) 2 arms (7HP/) 1 bite (2 HP)/ Special Never surprised/ Bite causes typhus". In the 1982 S4 module, the equivalent area is 13., and instead has two shambling mounds with no neo-otyugh (and a text search finds none in the whole module).

As a side note, it's a bit interesting on that 1976 page of stats the monsters have a "Hit Bonus" listed (but not hit dice), and at the top of the page there's a list of "unadjusted die roll to hit" for each of the 6 PCs (20/23/24/15/19/14), which is effectively equivalent to the ascending armor class system in 3E+.

[delta]

Whelp, here's a horrible discovery: I have two different scans of the mono-color Monster & Treasure Assortment (green pages for Set Two: Levels Four-Six), both dated 1977 and with apparently identical indicia on the cover (incl. "F 1007" code in bottom left)... and they have different text contents. In particular, for Level 6, entry #77, one of them has Yellow Mold while the other has Brown Mold (so: the first one has no brown mold at all).





(The reason I noticed this is I was looking to confirm that the "Draws opponents body heat" special effect is obviously very different from what russet mold does, and then it was totally missing in the first scan I looked at, vs. my coded list of everything in the other one.)

I see that the Acaeum knows about this and identifies them as (respectively) First Print and Second Print. The First Print has a back cover identifying it as for "Levels Four to Six", whereas the Second Print misidentifies itself as "Levels One to Three". Acaeum doesn't seem to mention the contents inside being different, though. At the moment I don't even want to consider spending the time to code up the differences, argh (note that even the stats for the Bugbears above are different in the AL and ST entries).

Edit: asaki has helpfully pointed out that what I thought was First Print above is actually a match for the 1980 combined Sets One-Three product, having been photoshopped green and pasted in between the covers of the older Set Two product (including unique correct back cover from the First Print).

Even more troubling now is the fact the text in neither of these scans matches what the Acaeum says about the First or Second Print; Acaeum says you have "Hobbits" in Level 6, encounter 43, but each of my different scans have "Halfling Hero/Thief" in that slot (with different save stats: one with Greyhawk style MU 6-10, the other with B/X style H 8). OMG so confusing!

[captainjapan]

There was an Aurotyugh in Dungeon Geomorphs Set 2 - Caves & Caverns(April 1977)

www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-otyugh.664134/

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 1, 2019 20:06:33 GMT -6 delta said:

I have two different scans of the mono-color Monster & Treasure Assortment (green pages for Set Two: Levels Four-Six), both dated 1977 and with apparently identical indicia on the cover (incl. "F 1007" code in bottom left)... and they have different text contents. In particular, for Level 6, entry #77, one of them has Yellow Mold while the other has Brown Mold (so: the first one has no brown mold at all).

Looks like Brown Mold might be off the team !?

On the other hand, the three AD&D hardbacks were published between Dec 1977 and Aug 1979, while the M&TA sets (excluding the combined reprint) were published in 1977 and 78, so there's overlap. A line between pre- and post-MM (Dec 77) is probably the clearest distinction we're likely to get.

Regardless, acaeum has both the 1st and 2nd prints of M&TA Set 2 published in 1977; evidently the developers were aware of Brown Mold by the 2nd print.

[asaki]

Oct 1, 2019 20:06:33 GMT -6 delta said:

Whelp, here's a horrible discovery: I have two different scans of the mono-color Monster & Treasure Assortment (green pages for Set Two: Levels Four-Six), both dated 1977 and with apparently identical indicia on the cover (incl. "F 1007" code in bottom left)... and they have different text contents. In particular, for Level 6, entry #77, one of them has Yellow Mold while the other has Brown Mold (so: the first one has no brown mold at all).

I didn't know there was a scan of the actual pages out there.

Your "Yellow Mold" copy is a custom job: they took the pages from the "Sets 1-9" compilation, digitally colored them green, and threw the snake illustration cover page on there...obviously ignorant to the fact that the real deal is a very different document.

They did the same thing for the 7-9 blue set.

I've noticed them doing similar things with other "trove" documents.

[delta]

Oct 2, 2019 4:21:51 GMT -6 asaki said:

Oct 1, 2019 20:06:33 GMT -6 delta said:

Whelp, here's a horrible discovery: I have two different scans of the mono-color Monster & Treasure Assortment (green pages for Set Two: Levels Four-Six), both dated 1977 and with apparently identical indicia on the cover (incl. "F 1007" code in bottom left)... and they have different text contents. In particular, for Level 6, entry #77, one of them has Yellow Mold while the other has Brown Mold (so: the first one has no brown mold at all).

I didn't know there was a scan of the actual pages out there.

Your "Yellow Mold" copy is a custom job: they took the pages from the "Sets 1-9" compilation, digitally colored them green, and threw the snake illustration cover page on there...obviously ignorant to the fact that the real deal is a very different document.

They did the same thing for the 7-9 blue set.

I've noticed them doing similar things with other "trove" documents.

Thanks for pointing that out -- I agree that seems to match what I'm looking at. They even matched the back cover from the actual First Print (which uniquely has the correct identifications of the levels covered, per Acaeum). Why would anyone do that?

Also I've noticed now that neither of the different scans I have synchs up with what the Acaeum says for any version of this product; e.g. they both have "F 1007" on the front cover, but Level 6, encounter 43 reads "Halfling Hero/Thief" instead of "Hobbit" (with two different versions of the stats). Ugh. Any ideas about that?

[grodog]

Oct 2, 2019 0:36:51 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

There was an Aurotyugh in Dungeon Geomorphs Set 2 - Caves & Caverns(April 1977)

www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-otyugh.664134/

Also on my site @ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_geomorphs.html

Oct 2, 2019 2:21:38 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Oct 1, 2019 20:06:33 GMT -6 delta said:

I have two different scans of the mono-color Monster & Treasure Assortment (green pages for Set Two: Levels Four-Six), both dated 1977 and with apparently identical indicia on the cover (incl. "F 1007" code in bottom left)... and they have different text contents. In particular, for Level 6, entry #77, one of them has Yellow Mold while the other has Brown Mold (so: the first one has no brown mold at all).

Looks like Brown Mold might be off the team !?

On the other hand, the three AD&D hardbacks were published between Dec 1977 and Aug 1979, while the M&TA sets (excluding the combined reprint) were published in 1977 and 78, so there's overlap. A line between pre- and post-MM (Dec 77) is probably the clearest distinction we're likely to get.

Regardless, acaeum has both the 1st and 2nd prints of M&TA Set 2 published in 1977; evidently the developers were aware of Brown Mold by the 2nd print.

FWIW, some of the PDF versions out there (legit and non-legit) have been posted as the individual M&T sets (with the cover images on them, for example), but the guts of them are the compiled B/X version vs. the original OD&D stand-alone versions. edit: Ah, you're already savvy to that!---as to why they'd do it, who knows?

Looking at my compiled set, Level 6 #77 is back to Yellow Mold in the 1980 version. foster1941 did some great analysis comparing the stand-alone vs. compiled versions @ www.acaeum.com/library/m&tchanges.html but I'm not sure whether he looked at differences in the individual printings of the stand-alone M&Ts to note differences in them.

Allan.

[waysoftheearth]

So… a single Brown Mold entry appears in the 1977-78 sets, but was (curiously?) removed from the 1980 combined reprint.

I can't find an earlier reference to Brown Mold in anything on my OD&D shelf; perhaps M&TA was its debut? Or perhaps it appears in an earlier zine somewhere?

[Deleted]

Otyugh sounds a lot like Ahoggya.

Just sayin'.

Also look at the Grell and the Kayi.

[waysoftheearth]

A&E #3 has Pink Mold, #14 has Rainbow Mold, and #17 has Blood Mold, but no Brown Mold thru #25 far as I can tell.

A&E #17 has a reference to All the Worlds Monsters; the first (red) volume predates Monster Manual. Anybody hereabouts have a copy?



Edit: images of All the Worlds Monsters index here. No Brown Mold... but it does have "Brown Ich". Anyone familiar with this one?

[verhaden]

Oct 3, 2019 21:28:06 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Otyugh sounds a lot like Ahoggya.

Just sayin'.

Also look at the Grell and the Kayi.

Bring back something other than iron?

[waysoftheearth]

I blew five bucks on an All the Worlds Monsters PDF to learn about "Brown Ich". Here it is:

[flightcommander]

"Ich" for "ichor", I suppose?