Which are the best published megadungeons?

[Zulgyan]

Of the real old-school era and the OSR era?
What makes them so good in comparison with others?
Do they have a unique twist or personality?
Have you actually run them?
What design lessons do they teach for making our own megadungeons?

Megadungeons or big multiple level dungeons that don't need to be MEGA to be the main focus of a campaign/game (something like a 6 level dungeon with some branching special levels).

Thanks!

[Zenopus]

Although not usually viewed as such, the original published megadungeon is TSR's Geomorphs + Monster & Treasure Assortments. Using these to create and stock your own 9+ level dungeon will create a dungeon similar to Gygax's early designs for Castle Greyhawk.

[Zulgyan]

I have to bring up Jeff Rient's dungeon: jrients.tripod.com/xylarthen/uxt.pdf

The duo baby dragon encounter is just so much fun.

[gemini476]

I'm rather fond of Michael Curtis' Stonehell, mostly because of the page layout. For example, while level one takes up eighteen pages it's laid out in a way that's very easy to navigate:

Page 1/2: full level map on the left, on the right a summary of the level followed by shorthand stats for all the monsters on the level (e.g. "Bugbear [AL C, MV 90' (30'), AC 5, HD 3+1, #AT 1, DG 2d4 or weapon +1, SV F3, ML 9]").
Page 3/4: Overview of the north-west quadrant of the level, with descriptions of special dungeon features, important NPCs, and new spells and monsters.
Page 5/6: blown-up map of the relevant quadrant of the level, wandering monster table, feature key, 39-room key, and tables for random crypt contents, an oracle's cryptic responses, and a cluttered storeroom.
Repeat for the other three quadrants of the map.

Once you're in an area, you hardly ever need to change page. Almost everything you need to know is available right in front of you.

There's a preview of level 1A on Lulu that should be fairly good at showing how things work. The first six levels (and 700ish rooms) are available on Lulu for $6.50 (eBook) or $13 (print-on-demand paperback), and the last six levels (think somewhat sci-fi influenced underdark) are $9 as ebook or 18$ paperback. There's also some smaller setting expansions that I haven't looked into, I think it's bandit caves in the surrounding area or something thereabouts? It's made for Labyrinth Lord (and some bits in the second book take stuff from Mutant Future, particularly Level 8A The Astronaut's Tomb), but backporting it to OD&D should be trivial. Your PCs might be a bit underpowered, though.

[Greyharp]

I've always had a soft spot for Dave "Sham" Bowman's Dismal Depths:

shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2008/12/dismal-depths.html

...and wished he'd delved a bit deeper and made it truly mega. Still with the aid of his OPD template (on the above page) there's no reason not to DIY.

[dicebro]

When did the word “megadungeon” become popular? Large multi-level dungeons were just “dungeons” in the original LBBs weren’t they?

[geoffrey]

Jul 22, 2019 17:55:45 GMT -6 dicebro said:

When did the word “megadungeon” become popular? Large multi-level dungeons were just “dungeons” in the original LBBs weren’t they?

Yes. I dislike the term "megadungeon". The earliest I can find its use is by JDJarvis on dragonsfoot on May 1, 2003. I certainly do not remember ever hearing or reading the word before that.

(Here's the thread: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2082&p=32662 )

[Zulgyan]

Yes, I get and agree on what you guys say about the "megadungeon" term. But it's a word one can use and people immediately understand what is being talked about, nowadays.

[Melan]

The distinction arose naturally, since later dungeons are definitely not "mega". In fact, most 5e-era modern dungeons are not even "mini" - they are usually microdungeons with 4-7 rooms and connecting corridors. But then even the early TSR modules were already a break from the OD&D dungeon idea.

[gemini476]

Jul 22, 2019 19:46:38 GMT -6 Piper said:

Jul 22, 2019 18:52:22 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

Yes, I get and agree on what you guys say about the "megadungeon" term. But it's a word one can use and people immediately understand what is being talked about, nowadays.

Oh, I've no problem with it. None at all. It simply wasn't in use from the very beginning, I do agree it's a handy term and use it myself.

In the beginning there wouldn't really be a point in the term, what with almost all dungeons being megadungeons. It's just that later in the 80s the definition of "dungeon" became closer to something about the size of the Tomb of Horrors and other tournament dungeons, with any published megadungeons having to repeatedly point out their size in the blurb.

Ruins of Undermountain is "The Deepest Dungeon of them all", where you will face "miles upon miles" of things in "the oldest, largest, and deadliest dungeon-crawl" ("if they survive its depths"). It's "an endless maze where waiting death bears a thousand faces and treasures lie hidden in a thousand places". It's "a dungeon setting". A "campaign set", in fact, and that's just the first three levels*!

*Unkeyed areas may be included.

The term "megadungeon" only really comes back when the internet becomes a big thing and people start to look back and say "hey, whatever happened to those huge dungeons Gygax et. al. had back in the day?" Much like The Lichway describes itself as IIRC a "minidungeon", people these days walk out of their Sunless Citadels, look at Castle Greyhawk, and call it a "megadungeon".

[Vile Traveller]

Back on topic - I have three very different published products in this category which I like (in no particular order because I like each for different reasons):

1: Anomalous Subsurface Environment
Although it stops at level 3 and doesn't look like it will ever be completed, there is enough here to get you well on your way in running a truly gonzo game. ASE doesn't use any of the common fantasy tropes, and turns a lot of things on their heads. The surface setting is just as interesting as the dungeon, and I can easily see a lot of play happening up there before the party even gets to the dungeon - if they ever do.

2: Stonehell
A really big dungeon, more mainstream D&D than ASE but still relatively crazy. And Holmes/ BLUEHOLME™ kobolds make much more sense in this setting than the reptilian MM type. Just enough background to keep it all together, enough variety to keep each quadrant of each level interesting, and a very compact presentation for such a large setting. Very table-friendly for that reason.

3: Castle Gargantua
Very different in its approach, CG is a generate-as-you-play type of dungeon. It could be a small dungeon depending on how you roll, but generally it ends up pretty big - and usually the players are trying to get out before too long. The players are the ones drawing the map, so if it doesn't make sense, you just blame them for getting it wrong. I've used this successfully with BLUEHACK™, it makes a great pick-up-and-go combination because it's easy to "end" the dungeon any time you want to.

[grodog]

My favorite mega-dungeons:

@s'mon on theRPGsite said:

Thinking about stuff like Dwimmermount, Stonehell, Castle of the Mad Archmage, Barrowmaze, TSR Greyhawk Ruins, Rappan Athuk et al. What are your favourites and why?

I think that for me it really varies, based on who I've been playing (or sometimes, working) with. I've really enjoyed nearly all of the mega-dungeons that I've played in or run*, but I've also generally had the wonderful pleasure of excellent DMs and players, which makes all the difference in the world in terms of the game experience at the table.

Thinking through the mega-dungeons I'm familiar with, some stand outs that still stick with me are:
- best mapping environment to explore: Castle El Raja Key, Maure Castle, Caverns of Thracia, Foolsgrave
- most-fun encounters: Castle Greyhawk, Foolsgrave
- most-fun enigmas/centerpieces: Castle Greyhawk, Maure Castle, WG5, ASE1/2-3, Undermountain
- coolest and biggest maps: Castle of the Mad Archmage, The Quilt Map, Undermountain, Vladikavkaz, Arden Vul, Foolsgrave
- pulls it all together fabulously: Caverns of Thracia, Maure Castle, Tomb of Abysthor

In terms of best-published format/presentation for a mega-dungeon, I don't think that we've seen that yet. Necromancer Games build out a good standard template for dungeon levels between Rappan Athuk and Tomb of Abysthor, and The Grand Temple of Jing attempted to design a new layout format for the mega-dungeon (similar to what Ptolus successfully achieved for the city sourcebook), but neither product quite achieved their overall goal on those fronts, due to other, over-shadowing issues with the products (horrible maps in RA the first go-round, while the KS version of GToJ didn't really pursue the usability goals of the first version of the dungeon). A well-built layout focused on at-the-table usaility, married to a brilliant book design could really distinguish a future mega-dungeon product, and potentially allow it to leapfrog into the top of the list....

Allan.

* Mega-dungeons I've played in:
- Castle El Raja Key - written and DM'd by Rob Kuntz (pre-published version)
- Caverns of Thracia - written by Jennell Jaquays, DM'd by Jon Hershberger
- Dark Tower - written by Jennell Jaquays, DM'd by Jon Hershberger
- Foolsgrave - written and DM'd by Chainsaw (pre-published version)
- Jakallan Underworld - written by Phil Barker, DM'd by Victor Raymond (pre-published version)
- Thieves Fortress Badabaskor - written by Bob Bledsaw & Mark Summerlott, DM'd by Jon Hershberger

Mega-dungeons I've run:
- Castle Greyhawk/The Lair of Thelmon Onvalth - my own (pre-published version)
- Castle Greyhawk - EGG and RJK - Bottle City, EX1-2, WG6, etc., etc.
- Castle El Raja Key/Maure Castle - RJK - WG5, The Statuary, Chambers of Antiquities, Warlock's Walk
- Mythrus Tower - Matt Finch
- Tomb of Abysthor - Clark Peterson and Bill Webb
- Undermountain - Ed Greenwood - Box set 1, Dragon articles

Mega-dungeons I've designed, developed, edited, and/or published:
- Castle Greyhawk/The Lair of Thelmon Onvalth - my version of Castle Greyhawk, including my version of The Black Reservoir (based on EGG story vs. RJK level) and The Quilt Map (based on Tony Rosten's map)
- Castle Greyhawk - RJK - Bottle City
- Castle of the Mad Archmage - Joe Bloch
- Maure Castle - RJK - Warlock's Walk
- The Twisting Stair centerfold mega-dungeon - Tony Rosten

Mega-dungeons I've read but neither run nor played in:
- Anomalous Subsurface Environment - Patrick Wetmore - Levels 1 and 2-3
- Arden Vul - Rick Barton (pre-published version)
- Barrowmaze - Greg Gillespie (first versions, pre-expansion via Barrowmaze Complete)
- Castle Blackmoor - First Fantasy Campaign and the 3.x version
- Castle Greyhawk - Castle Zagyg, WG7, WGR1, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, etc., etc.
- The Darkness Beneath - a few levels in Fight On!
- Dwimmermount - James Malizewski
- The Grande Temple of Jing - Danny O’Neill & Diverse Hands
- Mines of Khumar - Stefan Poag
- Palace of the Vampire Queen - Pete & Judy Kerestan
- Rappan Athuk - Clark Peterson & Bill Webb - R1-3, Rappan Athuk boxed set (original)
- Ruins of Kwalishar - Tim Kask (pre-published version)
- Stonehell - Michael Curtis - Vol 1: Down Night-Haunted Halls
- Undermountain - Ed Greenwood & Diverse Hands - Box set 2, the Fireplace level (Dungeon Magazine), a smattering of modules too
- Vladikavkaz - Keith Sloan (pre-published version)

[Deleted]

I'm not much of an in-dungeon DM, but from my own experiences, I can only echo the positive testimonies for "Caverns of Thracia", as well as for "Badabaskor". Another one that is perhaps too bi for its own good, but really super-fun is Gary Gygax' Necropolis. (Being a relative youngster, I only own the NG version, of course.)

The dungeons I've probably spent most of my time with are the Temple of Elemental Evil (though I'm not sure whether that one qualifies), the Palace of Otoncle (a SPI DragonQuest "haunted house" scenario), as well as, of course, Castle Blackmoor. My best experience, by far, was Blackmoor, but basically because I hadn't been a very experienced DM when I ran the others.

As to current and future products, I think "Arden Vul" has the potential to be a tremendous game-changer: I don't write this to gain bro-points from Rick or Clarence - I had the pleasure to read one of the early drafts of AV a few years ago. It's simply very, very strong from a design perspective, but also manages to tread on familiar oldschool grounds in terms of setting and general flair without feeling repetitive. - Which I consider AV's arguably biggest achievement because it's, after all, a product coming out at the end of a fifty-year tradition: It's very hard to write new things for a genre like heroic fantasy. Yet, Rick manages to do this in a way that feels natural.

Myself, you know what my own plans for a bigger future game are, as I've written about my explorations of "Midnight" a bit on this forum. If I was to run any bigger dungeon any time soon, then it would likely be AV, or that new AS&SH dungeon... Whose name I seem to have forgotten right now.

[geoffrey]

Rappan Athuk is the published megadungeon that most inspires my imagination.

[Zulgyan]

Jul 26, 2019 16:08:11 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Rappan Athuk is the published megadungeon that most inspires my imagination.

I have the 3.5 boxed set Rappan Athuk. In which ways is the S&W version better (aside from the convenient stats)?

[grodog]

Jul 26, 2019 16:08:11 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Rappan Athuk is the published megadungeon that most inspires my imagination.

The levels are too small for my tastes, Geoffrey, but I'd happily lift some of the encounters from it.

Allan.

[geoffrey]

Jul 26, 2019 16:25:11 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

Jul 26, 2019 16:08:11 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Rappan Athuk is the published megadungeon that most inspires my imagination.

I have the 3.5 boxed set Rappan Athuk. In which ways is the S&W version better (aside from the convenient stats)?

I am not aware of significant changes other than the stats. For me, Rappan Athuk consists only of the levels originally published in 2000-2002:

Ground Level: The Sunken Graveyard and the Mausoleum
Level 1: The Lair of the "Dung Monster"
Level 2: Marthek's Place and Ambro's Base
Level 3: "Beware of Purple Worms!"
Level 3A: "The Well"—Zelkor's Lair
Level 4: The Upper Temple of Orcus
Level 4A: The Basilisk Caverns
Level 5: Banth's Lair and the Wight Catacombs
Level 6: The Maze
Level 6A: Caves and Caverns — The Lair of the Spider Queen
Level 7: The Gates of Hell
Level 7A: The Hall of Kazleth, the Phase Minotaur King
Level 8: Caves and Caverns—The Tomb of the Evil King
Level 9: The Lower Temple of Orcus
Level 9A: Caves and Caverns — The Hydra's Lair
Levels 9B&C: The Well of Agamemnon
Level 10: The Lava Pit
Level 11A: The Giant Cavern
Level 11: The Waterfall and Akbeth's Grave
Level 11A: The Gates to the Goblin City and the Vampire Lair
Level 12: The Slave Pits
Level 12A: The Goblin City and the Hall of the Titan Cyclops
Level 13: The Portal of Darkness
Level 13A: The Goblin Barracks
Level 14: The Chapel of Orcus
Level 15: The Den of the Master

Furthermore, levels 11A through 15 exhibit a marked drop-off in quality from the levels above. Levels 11 and above are thoroughly awesome, like early Black Sabbath music turned into dungeon levels.

[Melan]

I believe a lot of the lower RA levels were just very loose notes while the top ones were more fleshed out through play - most of us can probably relate.

[makofan]

Stefan Poag's "The Mines of Khunmar" reads well, and plays even better. It is full of craziness and wonder mixed with the mundane. It evokes in me the same feelings as when I first read The Lord of the Rings as a child and encountered Moria

[artikid]

Barrowmaze I is pretty cool, the follow-up modules BM II and BM Complete are too "Mega" for my tastes.
Many gates of the Gann is not really Mega, but is a good, weird dungeon.

[noteef]

Aug 11, 2019 18:41:58 GMT -6 makofan said:

Stefan Poag's "The Mines of Khunmar" reads well, and plays even better. It is full of craziness and wonder mixed with the mundane. It evokes in me the same feelings as when I first read The Lord of the Rings as a child and encountered Moria

Thank you for this. Have spent the better part of my lunch reading his blog after doing a google search for this. It is great.

[makofan]

Aug 12, 2019 10:20:31 GMT -6 noteef said:

Aug 11, 2019 18:41:58 GMT -6 makofan said:

Stefan Poag's "The Mines of Khunmar" reads well, and plays even better. It is full of craziness and wonder mixed with the mundane. It evokes in me the same feelings as when I first read The Lord of the Rings as a child and encountered Moria

Thank you for this. Have spent the better part of my lunch reading his blog after doing a google search for this. It is great.

If you go here
odd74.proboards.com/board/54/makofan-online-od?page=2
Northern Adventures #4-9 are in the Mines