Do dwarves and elves get infravision?

[delta]

Discussing/researching infravision with a friend, and now I'm reflecting on the fact that nowhere in the LBBs does it say that dwarves and elves have infravision.

Now, in Chainmail, the Fantasy Reference Table notes for both dwarves and elves, "The ability to see in normal darkness as if it were light" (thanks to waysoftheearth for pointing that out). OD&D Vol-2 (p. 5) then says, "Special Ability functions are generally as indicated in CHAINMAIL where not contradictory to the information stated hereinafter, and it is generally true that any monster or man can see in total darkness as far as the dungeons are concerned except player characters"; and in Vol-3 (p. 9), "In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used", with no stated exception for dwarves/elves. Sup-I is the first place in OD&D to specify that they get infravision by default, and of course later rules say the same thing (AD&D, Holmes, B/X, etc.).

So: Do dwarves and elves in your OD&D game get infravision? Focus your answer on PCs only if you think that makes a difference.

[retrorob]

In BTPBD Elves & Dwarves can see in the dark as well.

[gemini476]

While they probably would by Chainmail rules, and arguably the relevant Greyhawk rules might have been in play at the time as well (cf. the LBB's description of Strength), I feel like the spirit of the LBBs is against it.

While you quoted the bit on "In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used", note also the last sentence in that same paragraph: "Monsters are assumed to have permanent infravision as long as they are not serving some character" (emphasis mine). The LBBs really don't want PCs to have access to permanent infravision.

[thegreyelf]

I don't have the books open in front of me right now, but I'm also pretty sure there's a statement in Underworld and Wilderness Adventures that says something to the effect of, "player characters cannot see in the dark without help, but all monsters (including human types) can."

[Finarvyn]

I think that infravision can be a real game-breaker. Why would anyone ever bother to play a human thief, when all of the elves and dwarves in the party can see so much better in the dark than the human can. (That's been one of our issues in 5E.)

[rustic313]

I give elves, dwarves and thieves (level 2+) low light vision. This allows detail to be discerned out to the range of shadowy illumination. I imagine it similar to a modern gen 1+ night vision device ("starlight scope").

This does not extend the vision range at all. If generous then I roll an extra die when determining encounter distance if it seems relevant and drop the lowest die so that encounters tend to begin further away.

Thieves get this ability so that human thieves aren't even more outclassed by the demihumans.

I apply this for PCs and the NPC population.

[geoffrey]

Jul 11, 2019 9:24:15 GMT -6 delta said:

Sup-I is the first place to specify they get infravision by default...

I regard Supplement I: GREYHAWK as basically the errata sheet for the 1974 D&D game, so I voted "yes".

[retrorob]

... and I regard Greyhawk as the major revision of the game, so I voted "no"

no infravision for PC and monster allied with the party (betrayers of The Underworld). Human-type NPC need light source though - I don't consider them "monsters".

[tetramorph]

Yes, I factor this in as a racial attribute.

Infravision gives about the range of a torch with about the ability to discern of a candle and if there is no heat it doesn’t work at all, except from the heat of the character’s body.

So it is really more an emergency stop gap than a go to.

Also, I strongly encourage the big three classes and discourage the rest.

I usually only allow good players who have played all the other options first to have one of these special classes.

At that point, they know how to work as a team member, and not try to min max on these littlest funky benefits.

[aldarron]

Yep, I give it to them for consistency's sake (darkvision). Thing is, I treat it strictly as an ability to see in the dark. Any light source at all will spoil it, so in a mixed party it is only useful when all the torches or lanterns are extinguished or when the dwarf/elf is off on their own for some reason.

[Zakharan]

Given Dwarves' ability to identify stonework, it stands to reason they have darkvision. My first run of OD&D assumed this, and this time I didn't.

I then ultimately undid that effort via several homebrew races, but it's the thought that counts.

[tkdco2]

I started with B/X, so elves and dwarves in my game have infravision.

[delta]

Hopefully everyone's voting in the poll -- it seems like currently there's several more "yes" replies than there are votes for it. :-)

[tkdco2]

I voted.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 11, 2019 9:24:15 GMT -6 delta said:

if we think to include Chainmail by reference, that work says for dwarves, "these stout folk operate equally well day or night", but nothing of the sort is given for elves.

FWIW, the Fantasy Reference Table (CM2 p39, CM3 p43) states elves have: «The ability to see in normal darkness as if it were light».

Perhaps not seminal to OD&D but, as pointed out above, BTPBD states for Elves: «they can see in the dark and cannot get lost in normal woods».

Jul 11, 2019 9:24:15 GMT -6 delta said:

So: Do dwarves and elves in your OD&D game get infravision?

I voted "yes", but not per the Infravision spell. IMC elves/dwarfs (and rat catchers) have what I call "dusk vision"; they see better than humans in low light, but not in pitch darkness.

[retrorob]

Jul 15, 2019 1:13:29 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Jul 11, 2019 9:24:15 GMT -6 delta said:

if we think to include Chainmail by reference, that work says for dwarves, "these stout folk operate equally well day or night", but nothing of the sort is given for elves.

FWIW, the Fantasy Reference Table (CM2 p39, CM3 p43) states elves have: «The ability to see in normal darkness as if it were light».

Perhaps not seminal to OD&D but, as pointed out above, BTPBD states for Elves: «they can see in the dark and cannot get lost in normal woods».

Can someone confirm if it is present in GD&D-draft?

[noteef]

Elves and Dwarves do not have infravision in our version of OD&D.

I may be connecting dots that are not there, but PCs needing light sources, and monsters not needing them, seems tied, in part, to the surprise mechanic.

The lighting rules create situations where monsters, especially wandering, have a chance to surprise. Due to the light sources of the PCs, monsters are not surprised. And of course this is preserved even if the PCs have a monster ally.

This system presents a common theme. PCs earn less wandering monsters, with a chance of being surprised, by making good decisions, working fast and together, etc. They earn the right to roll for surprise by not piling up three people on a door, by deliberately setting up ambushes, and by other player-driven ideas.

Infravision for Elves and Dwarves would disrupt this mechanic in our game.

Edit: sorry, by “our” I only meant the group I play with.

[delta]

Jul 15, 2019 1:13:29 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

FWIW, the Fantasy Reference Table (CM2 p39, CM3 p43) states elves have: «The ability to see in normal darkness as if it were light».

Ooh, that's key. Also says the same for dwarves. Thanks for that reminder! (Editing the main post to include that.)

[retrorob]

The question arises: is the Underworld darkness "normal darkness"?

[Zakharan]

Jul 16, 2019 3:31:31 GMT -6 retrorob said:

The question arises: is the Underworld darkness "normal darkness"?

I'd wager it is, if only because otherwise what's the point of an Anti-Cleric's "Darkness?"

[Elphilm]

Anything that messes up this classic image is a no-no for me. Dwarves and hobbits halflings use torches like everyone else.

More seriously, Finarvyn already laid down my main objection to handing out infravision/darkvision for free:

Jul 12, 2019 6:55:03 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I think that infravision can be a real game-breaker. Why would anyone ever bother to play a human thief, when all of the elves and dwarves in the party can see so much better in the dark than the human can. (That's been one of our issues in 5E.)

[gemini476]

To be fair, human Thieves are already sub-optimal since demihumans don't even have a level limit. A Dwarven Fighter is strictly better than a Human Fighter until the Human gets to levels beyond what the Dwarf can achieve, but with the Thief the latter never happens. And demihuman Thieves get skill bonuses in addition to their existing things, so they're better still.

Really, the Greyhawk Thieves seem to mostly be intended for their multiclass usage.

[delta]

Jul 16, 2019 3:40:08 GMT -6 Zakharan said:

I'd wager it is, if only because otherwise what's the point of an Anti-Cleric's "Darkness?"

At the risk of derailing this, I'll point out that in the Chainmail version of the darkness spell, it explicitly notes that "only those troops that can see in darkness can then attack/defend". So at least one possible interpretation is that it shuts off the lights for humans/hobbits/heroes, and lets the Anti-Cleric's monstrous allies (goblins, orcs, etc.) attack at advantage. Not until Sup-I do you get a version that also foils infravision.

[talysman]

Jul 12, 2019 4:48:54 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

I don't have the books open in front of me right now, but I'm also pretty sure there's a statement in Underworld and Wilderness Adventures that says something to the effect of, "player characters cannot see in the dark without help, but all monsters (including human types) can."

Yes, it's on page 9.

In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used. Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door. Also, torches can be blown out by a strong gust of wind. Monsters are assumed to have permanent infravision as long as they are not serving some character.

(Emphasis added.)

Clearly, this is something that Gygax went back and forth on: first, elves/dwarves have infravision in Chainmail, then they lose it in the 3LBBs, then they get it back in Greyhawk. I prefer "no infravision for any character in an adventure party" because of the effects on surprise noted above. Players have to decide if they want to use light and negate the chance of surprise, or not use light and possibly die in a trap. Or get an infravision spell.

It did occur to me that you could solve this semi-realistically by just saying that monsters that live in a dungeon know the layout and the sounds of the other inhabitants through long practice and so don't need light to move in the dungeon or detect adventurers, but they need light for anything else, like reading. Players don't get free infravision by using elves and dwarves, but at the same time elves and dwarves in the dungeon won't need light much of the time and have a chance to surprise the party.

[geoffrey]

When I first started playing D&D back in 1980, I somehow got it firmly in my head that humans and hobbits never have infravision, and everything else always does. That has stuck.

[Zenopus]

Jul 16, 2019 12:20:11 GMT -6 delta said:

Jul 16, 2019 3:40:08 GMT -6 Zakharan said:

I'd wager it is, if only because otherwise what's the point of an Anti-Cleric's "Darkness?"

At the risk of derailing this, I'll point out that in the Chainmail version of the darkness spell, it explicitly notes that "only those troops that can see in darkness can then attack/defend". So at least one possible interpretation is that it shuts off the lights for humans/hobbits/heroes, and lets the Anti-Cleric's monstrous allies (goblins, orcs, etc.) attack at advantage. Not until Sup-I do you get a version that also foils infravision.

My team (Law) lost the Battle of the Brown Hills at Gary Con in 2017 because we overlooked this powerful aspect of the Darkness spell in Chainmail!

[thegreyelf]

Jul 16, 2019 13:06:06 GMT -6 talysman said:

Clearly, this is something that Gygax went back and forth on: first, elves/dwarves have infravision in Chainmail, then they lose it in the 3LBBs, then they get it back in Greyhawk.

I had completely forgotten that they get it back in Greyhawk. So I guess the answer is, "it depends on what books you're using to play." .

[Zenopus]

The Chainmail ability refers to "normal darkness" so one way to reconcile this with OD&D Vol 3 is to assume the darkness in the "Underworld" (i.e., most dungeons PCs will be exploring) is *not normal*.

Elves can see in the dark by starlight (i.e., the Wilderness), but not the Underworld. Dwarves can see underground, but only in normal dwarven mines/strongholds etc, not the monster-infested "Mythic Underworld" where adventures take place.

[waysoftheearth]

To review: U&WA p5 <<Special Ability functions are generally as indicated in CHAINMAIL where not contradictory to the information stated hereinafter>>.

Okay, so we start with CM which states that elves and dwarves see in normal darkness as if it were light. This continues in OD&D unless it's contradicted by the 3LBBs which...

(as far as I'm aware) don't explicitly support or deny it. However, the LBBs do include a couple of statements that (might?) imply elves/dwarves are deprived of night vision. These are:

U&WA p5 <<it is generally true that any monster or man can see in total darkness as far as the dungeons are concerned except player characters>> and U&WA p9 <<In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used>>.

My take on these two lines is that it was generally assumed (c.1973) that the players would be human. Maybe the history buffs know when non-human use became common, but my understanding is most of the earliest players were human. So my (convenient!) read is "players" here generally refers to "human players".
FWIW, this is not original thinking; BtPBD has: <<In the Underworld, generally passages have no light source. In this case, especially for hobbits and men, players must have some kind of light source>> (emphasis mine).


U&WA p9 <<Monsters are assumed to have permanent infravision as long as they are not serving some character>>.

For me this one is true while serving near to the character (who is presumably carrying a light source which spoils infravision). If the serving monster were to be left behind, or to wander off into darkness, its infravision would return.

That "creative reading" aside...

Perhaps also worthwhile noting that the infravision spell (M&M p26) has only 40--60ft range; which is perhaps not so good as the light range of a magic sword, a certainly not as good as a continual light spell.

Meanwhile BtPBD suggests: <<A lit torch will permit a player to "see" maximum of 15 feet, after which only dim shadows are slightly visible. A lantern has a maximum range of 30', with similar viewing after this distance>> (emphasis mine).

So unlike infravision (which has only 40--60ft range) torches and lanterns provide good visibility out to 15 or 30ft, and then dimly visible shadows beyond that.

[tkdco2]

Another way to look at infravision is to be able to detect differences in heat signatures. A pool of cold water underground would be cooler than the rest of the cavern, while an approaching goblin would be warmer than the environment. These would appear as changes in color, like FLIR images. But if a passage and everything in it has achieved themal equilibrium with the surrounding environment, infravision won't help at all. So characters with infravision would need a light source to see the walls in the dungeon and any pits that lie in the adventureres' path.

And if you really want to give the players a hard time, rule that undead creatures don't radiate heat and thus can't be detected via infravision.