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Post by spacemonkeydm on May 24, 2019 16:46:23 GMT -6
I am always confused at 74' dungeons and dragons. I am really trying to understand and enjoy, but sometimes it is hard to find things. So I noticed in multiple places online it stats that zombies and skeletons are immune to missile fire. How is this conclusion reached? I read the passages I see people refer to and I Still don't get it.
While I am at, wights take double damage from magic missile fire? Odd but that what the rules say right?
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 25, 2019 1:32:22 GMT -6
See this old post: What exactly is the "whole swords and arrows" rule? I don't see anything about it in my Monsters & Treasure or Greyhawk books... M&T p5 (1974) CM 2nd Ed. p33 (1973) M&T p9 (1974) An example of a D&D-rule that is contradictory to the CM-rule (specifically for D&D-Wights). D&D-Skeletons and -Zombies are similar enough to share a common description on the MONSTER REFERENCE TABLE (M&T p3) and for their main description (M&T p9), so one might conclude that D&D-skeletons/zombies also share common special abilities... In 1975 it was noted that CM-zombies performed as did CM-Wights (and ghouls): CM 3rd Ed. p37 (1975) Riiight... so, if we follow the breadcrumbs, we can almost see how D&D-Zombies (and D&D-Skeletons) could have the special abilities indicated for CM-Zombies, which are per CM-Wights (and Ghouls), who are unaffected by normal missiles. It's interesting then that Holmes (1977) states explicitly that Zombies "can be destroyed by normal weapons" (p34). Attacks with weapons and missiles are discussed separately versus many of the other undead types, so one might wonder whether the "normal weapons" versus zombies exclude "normal missiles"... in which case it might be "even more implicit" (ha!) in Holmes that OD&D-Zombies are unaffected by normal missiles. Meanwhile, the Monster Manual (also 1977) gives us a quite distinct variation on the theme for AD&D-skeletons: MM p88 (1977) ...but doesn't afford AD&D-Zombies any such advantage. Seemingly by now (1977), skeletons and zombies are getting separate treatment? That's all I've got for now  |
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Post by talysman on May 25, 2019 1:49:52 GMT -6
I am always confused at 74' dungeons and dragons. I am really trying to understand and enjoy, but sometimes it is hard to find things. So I noticed in multiple places online it stats that zombies and skeletons are immune to missile fire. How is this conclusion reached? I read the passages I see people refer to and I Still don't get it. Things changed in later editions, and sometimes people take a change from another edition and backport it into OD&D, or make something up they think will be more fun. I don't recall seeing someone use zombies and skeletons that are immune to missile fire, but maybe there's someone out there doing that. AD&D 1e Monster Manual, which many people use with OD&D as well because the numbers match, has skeletons taking half damage from sharp or edged weapons. Presumably, the rationale was that skeletons don't have blood or vital organs, so they only take damage from the force of a blow shattering their bones. Zombies have no specific combat immunity, though. Somewhere, I've seen skeletons that were almost totally immune to normal arrows, with the explanation that arrows pass completely through their ribs. When I started tweaking the undead myself and arranged them into various ranks, I changed weapon immunity for 1 HD skeletons. Normal arrows do only 1 point of damage. Other weapons, including silver and magic arrows, do standard damage. 1 HD zombies and mummies take half damage from normal arrows, and 1 HD spectral undead are immune to normal arrows (but nothing else.) Part of this was based on vague ideas about arrows mostly being effective because of piercing vital organs, but mainly it was just looking at the original undead and tweaking the weapon immunities so that they become more immune as they gain HD, in this rough order: normal arrows -> normal weapons -> silver weapons In other words: do what you're happy with. While I am at, wights take double damage from magic missile fire? Odd but that what the rules say right? Not the spell Magic Missile, but magic arrows. A bit unusual, but wights were basically statted as weaker wraiths. Wraiths can only be struck by magic weapons because they are insubstantial. Wights are thus partially insubstantial and take damage from silver and magic arrows. I think the damage for magic arrows was doubled solely because Gygax wanted them to do more damage than silver arrows. |
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Post by spacemonkeydm on May 25, 2019 11:26:00 GMT -6
See this old post: M&T p5 (1974) CM 2nd Ed. p33 (1973) M&T p9 (1974) An example of a D&D-rule that is contradictory to the CM-rule (specifically for D&D-Wights). D&D-Skeletons and -Zombies are similar enough to share a common description on the MONSTER REFERENCE TABLE (M&T p3) and for their main description (M&T p9), so one might conclude that D&D-skeletons/zombies also share common special abilities... In 1975 it was noted that CM-zombies performed as did CM-Wights (and ghouls): CM 3rd Ed. p37 (1975) Riiight... so, if we follow the breadcrumbs, we can almost see how D&D-Zombies (and D&D-Skeletons) could have the special abilities indicated for CM-Zombies, which are per CM-Wights (and Ghouls), who are unaffected by normal missiles. It's interesting then that Holmes (1977) states explicitly that Zombies "can be destroyed by normal weapons" (p34). Attacks with weapons and missiles are discussed separately versus many of the other undead types, so one might wonder whether the "normal weapons" versus zombies exclude "normal missiles"... in which case it might be "even more implicit" (ha!) in Holmes that OD&D-Zombies are unaffected by normal missiles. Meanwhile, the Monster Manual (also 1977) gives us a quite distinct variation on the theme for AD&D-skeletons: MM p88 (1977) ...but doesn't afford AD&D-Zombies any such advantage. Seemingly by now (1977), skeletons and zombies are getting separate treatment? That's all I've got for now My head is spinning. Thanks So to summarize Ghouls yes to missile fire zombies, undead, wights, wraiths (and specters) No to missile fire damaging them. Got it. |
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Post by talysman on May 25, 2019 17:19:04 GMT -6
My head is spinning. Thanks So to summarize Ghouls yes to missile fire zombies, undead, wights, wraiths (and specters) No to missile fire damaging them. Got it. More importantly? How do you want it to work in your campaign? IMO this should be the first and the last question when it comes to how anything works at your table. Yes, exactly. That's one point I tried to make above. If you want ghouls, skeletons and zombies to go with the Chainmail rules and be immune to normal missile fire, go with it. If you want to go with the OD&D rules and make them all vulnerable as ghouls, go with that instead. If you want to split the difference, making ghouls vulnerable because they are called out specifically in Monsters & Treasure but going with Chainmail rules for skeletons/zombies, that's an option. Or any of the later edition versions. Or just make something up. It's better to think about it first and decide what you want the undead to be like, then make the rules fit that, rather than sticking to "official" rules just because they are official. |
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Post by Red Baron on May 29, 2019 4:32:04 GMT -6
I've always played that swords/spears/daggers do half damage vs skeletons while normal arrows are ineffective, which is the "swords and arrows rule" mentioned above in the quoted post.
Undead are properly scary when they don't check morale, are difficult to damage, and can't be taken out by sleep/charm/etc.
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 29, 2019 8:27:47 GMT -6
Zombies are fine, just feed 'em some salt. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 30, 2019 20:38:46 GMT -6
So to summarize Ghouls yes to missile fire zombies, undead, wights, wraiths (and specters) No to missile fire damaging them. Got it. Go with whatever pleases you  My personal interpretation of the "breadcrumbs" is: D&D-Zombies and D&D-Skeletons have the special abilities of CM-Zombies. CM-Zombies have the special abilities of CM-Wights and CM-Ghouls. CM-Wights and CM-Ghouls are unaffected by normal missiles. Therefore (because of M&T p5): D&D-Zombies, D&D-Skeletons, D&D-ghouls, D&D-wights are all unaffected by normal missiles. However, the explicit exceptions to the general (M&T p5) rule are: D&D-Ghouls "are subject to missile fire". D&D-Wights "silver-tipped arrows will score normal damage, and magic arrows will score double hits" So to sum up: D&D-Zombies, D&D-Skeletons are unaffected by normal missiles. D&D-Ghouls "are subject to missile fire". D&D-Wights "silver-tipped arrows will score normal damage, and magic arrows will score double hits" I like that zombies can be riddled with normal missiles yet still stagger awfully forward; makes them scary. |
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Post by gemini476 on May 31, 2019 9:36:08 GMT -6
However, here's yet another bit where things get complicated: the D&D Zombies/Skeletons actually predate the Chainmail ones! While the third edition of Chainmail (1975, published by TSR) includes zombies at the end of the Wights (and Ghouls) entry, the second edition (1972, Guidon Games) does not. (I've seen people get similarly confused with 3E's added spells and chance-based spellcasting system, for what it's worth.)
Compare:
Note also how while other adjacent entries refer you to Chainmail (Giants: "As stated in CHAINMAIL,", Ghouls: "As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights,", Spectres: "as stated in CHAINMAIL") the Skeletons/Zombies entry does no such thing. Why would it, after all, when there wasn't any entry for them in Chainmail?
Fun sidenote: if you rule that zombies and skeletons use their pasted-in Chainmail stats nonetheless, this means that they now paralyze as Ghouls!
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Post by talysman on May 31, 2019 16:54:14 GMT -6
Fun sidenote: if you rule that zombies and skeletons use their pasted-in Chainmail stats nonetheless, this means that they now paralyze as Ghouls! This probably doesn't make sense to those who use the interpretation of ghoul paralysis as some kind of poison effect caused by the filth on their fingernails, an interpretation I've seen somewhere in an official product... but the alternate interpretation is that the victim is paralyzed by fear and will snap out of it if a companion grabs them and tells them to snap out of it. I'm actually going with something more like this with my rewrite of the undead. Zombies and walking dead cause hirelings to flee before combat begins unless their morale reaction is Good+, or automatically flee if they are surprised. This is caused by their frightening appearance and can be modified by stage of decay or visibility. Ghouls have the same effect, but also can paralyze weaker humans (those with less than 1+1 dice) with their touch until a companion is able to shake them out of it. My walking dead and ghouls get progressively stronger, turning into various vampiric forms and losing much of the fear effect as they become more able to pass as human. I figured the charm ability basically replaces the paralysis ability. They still force hirelings to check morale if they are seen tearing into someone's throat to drink their blood. |
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Post by retrorob on Jun 1, 2019 3:06:11 GMT -6
I got a lot of issues with the Undead.
To begin with, there are some differencies in prints regarding Skeletons & Zombies HD. Skeletons are 1 HD or 1/2 HD, Zombies 2 or 1 HD. I stick with lesser values.
Wights are immune to normal missiles. Take note though that there is no clear indication in vol. II that Wights or Wraiths are immune to normal mellee weapons! This is true only for Mummies, Spectres and Vampires. I made Wights & Wraiths immune to normal weapons anyway, but you can still hit them with fire, silver or holy water. Sometimes I judged that Wraiths got only 1/2 damage from these.
No half damage for edged weapons against Skeletons or Zombies.
Only Ghouls have Morale rate and can actually flee the battlefield. The rest of the Undead class fight to the end, except Vampires - I treat them more as NPC.
By the way, in OD&D Nazgul = Spectre (not Wraith).
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Post by gemini476 on Jun 1, 2019 6:35:01 GMT -6
Fun sidenote: if you rule that zombies and skeletons use their pasted-in Chainmail stats nonetheless, this means that they now paralyze as Ghouls! This probably doesn't make sense to those who use the interpretation of ghoul paralysis as some kind of poison effect caused by the filth on their fingernails, an interpretation I've seen somewhere in an official product... but the alternate interpretation is that the victim is paralyzed by fear and will snap out of it if a companion grabs them and tells them to snap out of it. The real reason for it, of course, is that they're barrow-wights and that's what they did to the Hobbits.
[...]
WIGHTS: Barrow Wights (per Tolkien) are nasty critters who drain away life levels when they score a hit in melee, on level per hit. [/quote][/div]
Zombies and skeletons were clearly never meant to have the wight's abilities, in any case, so it's kind of a moot point.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jun 2, 2019 0:03:10 GMT -6
Stepping beyond the RAW ... how "undead" are skeletones an zombies (and mummies, if you like)? On the one hand, they are animated corpses, really no different to animated objects - both activated by magic, mindless and devoid of self-motivation. On the other, they are turned by clerics and share many other similarities with the independent-minded undead.
I sometimes like to think that they are not just animated matter, that the original person is trapped in that corpse by the spell, aware but unable to control their own rotting corpse. Poor Bardan.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 2, 2019 2:08:03 GMT -6
Note: for one complete turn.
That is a one-minute CM turn, potentially comprising multiple (therefore sub-minute) rounds of melee.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 2, 2019 2:11:19 GMT -6
I'm actually going with something more like this with my rewrite of the undead. Perhaps off topic, but I've often pondered a re-write of the undead (as much to re-balance more to my own taste as to throw something "different" at experienced players). Be interested to see where you're headed with it talysman; maybe in a dedicated topic? |
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Post by talysman on Jun 2, 2019 12:00:34 GMT -6
I'm actually going with something more like this with my rewrite of the undead. Perhaps off topic, but I've often pondered a re-write of the undead (as much to re-balance more to my own taste as to throw something "different" at experienced players). Be interested to see where you're headed with it talysman; maybe in a dedicated topic? Yes, I can start a new thread on it. I would have thought I'd already done one, since this is a rewrite of a previous rewrite. It was originally a series of posts on my blog. One thing I changed was the issue Vile Traveller mentioned of animated dead vs. true undead. I have 1 HD skeletal and rotting undead, distinct from animated dead. Except that there's a chance under certain conditions that an Animate Dead or Raise Dead spell turns a corpse or skeleton into a bound true undead, which may break free. Mummified undead are currently always true undead, but Vile's got me thinking: would casting Animate Dead on an ordinary mummified corpse animate it? It should, shouldn't it? |
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Post by gemini476 on Jun 4, 2019 1:04:44 GMT -6
The topic of animated vs. "true" undead is kind of interesting, yeah.
In summary:
Raise Dead works on recently dead bodies (four days, plus four per Cleric level after 8th), with a chance to fail if your Constitution is low. Anti-Clerics probably can't cast this.
Skeletons/Zombies are created by Magic-Users (through Animate Dead) or Anti-Clerics (through an unincluded DM fiat method). Note that the spell "in no way brings a creature back to life". The resulting undead is also dispellable!
Ghouls, Wights, Wraiths, Spectres, and Vampires are all created in a contagious manner: if one kills you, you become one.
Mummies have no explanation, probably because it's somewhat obvious (e.g. mummified corpse set to patrol through millenia-old ritual).
I don't think I quite agree with the "trapped soul" version of Animate Dead, though, mostly because the implication of Raise Dead's time limit seems to be that the soul doesn't stick around for long. Also, of course, Animate Dead "in no way brings a creature back to life".
Using Animate Dead to potentially artificially extend the Raise Dead timer also seems somewhat exploitable on a game-mechanical level, which further shies me away from that interpretation.
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