Reduce Dragon Breath by Damage Taken?

[delta]

Here's a question I've asked in an AD&D forum in the past. (Apologies if this is already here, I searched and couldn't find it.) I think I know how most of us read this in OD&D, but I'll ask a poll to be sure. (I could be wrong, and I've previously found most people seem to be ironclad sure that their competing interpretations were correct and by-the-book; AD&D is more ambiguous, and B/X says something different.) To wit: Do you reduce the damage from dragon breath, based on the damage the dragon has taken? Any observations from the creators' tables are very welcome, of course.

[retrorob]

I reduce the damage. It seems to be reasonable and gives the characters a chance. Recently my players (F-M 8, HP 30 & F-M 7, HP 35) fought the big old Green Dragon (HD 9, HP 45). In the 6th round of melee the Dragon used its breath weapon. Fortunately for the PC, the beast was wounded at that time. It was sufficient to kill the Champion anyway, though he managed to grab a Panzerfaust from a dead Gnoll and killed the dragon with his "dying blow".

[Finarvyn]

I just keep the breath damage the same, no matter the injury level of the dragon.

Actually, it never occurred to me to reduce it. Having breath damage go down with dragon health reminds me a lot of the T&T combat system. An interesting concept.

[sixdemonbag]

Feb 27, 2019 5:14:18 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Having breath damage go down with dragon health reminds me a lot of the T&T combat system. An interesting concept.

Classic "death spiral" mechanic.

Interestingly, dragons already have an explicit "death spiral" weakness in the Subduing Dragons section. As they lose hit points, they become easier to subdue and sell. So adding another similar weakness to their breath weapon would be almost "double dipping" so-to-speak.

But, it's fascinating that I've never considered their breath damage going down with their HPs. It can certainly be read that way!

[retrorob]

It can. The exact rule comes from Moldvay's BD&D.

[magremore]

Surprised to see this tied and have to wonder how much of that is a back-formation from AD&D? The literal reading from vol II sure seems to be that the breath weapon is tied to HD (which does not decrease with hit points) and the example, although it is from subduing and not regular attacking, supports what the earlier text suggests.

Would like to see more votes on this!

EDIT: In no way suggesting that people can't run the game however they want!

[nizrad]

After looking over the dragon section in Monsters and Treasure, in particular the example of subduing a dragon, injury does not seem to affect the damage output of a dragon's breath weapon. In the example the red dragon received 11 damage (to subdue) and still breathed for 66 damage.

[geoffrey]

Always damage by maximum hit points--except for the Fiend Folio's lung wang and t'ien lung.

[clownboss]

People reduce dragon's breath damage as it loses HP? What???

[delta]

Mar 2, 2019 6:40:44 GMT -6 clownboss said:

People reduce dragon's breath damage as it loses HP? What???

For what it's worth, the whole B/X and BECMI D&D line by Moldvay-Mentzer-Allston from 1981 on explicitly says to do that (in fact, it doesn't even have the OD&D points-by-age table in there), so anyone accustomed to those rules or a mashup will have that expectation. It also says to do that in the AD&D Field Folio dragons entry.

[gemini476]

I suspect that the variant comes from either a reading of OD&D's (somewhat vague) rules or from a literal reading of AD&D's description:

The breath weapon causes damage equal to the dragon’s hit points (half that amount if a saving throw is made) on each and every creature hit by the breath weapon.

While there's a sample of dragon subdual in AD&D as well as OD&D, and both have the dragon breath for full damage after some rounds of combat, AD&D is also clear that subdual damage is considered separately from ordinary damage which keeps the matter ambiguous.

It's maybe also worth noting that while some authors read it as being "damage equal to the dragon's current hit points", in the end for Second Edition they just took the damage and converted it into dice - and keeping it the same no matter the dragon's current hit points.


I suspect that part of it might also be due to Basic having a younger audience and thus an incentive towards taking the "nicer" reading. An OD&D dragon is a constant threat of death, but a Basic dragon becomes less deadly as the fight goes on.

[delta]

Mar 3, 2019 11:42:07 GMT -6 gemini476 said:

I suspect that the variant comes from either a reading of OD&D's (somewhat vague) rules or from a literal reading of AD&D's description...

Totally solid observations. In addition, what I noticed a few nights ago is that Moldvay actually disposed of the entire age-category-points table that we're familiar with, instead folding dragon hit points into a standard roll-a-bunch-of-d8's mechanic (like every other monster). Admittedly some people find it weird in O/AD&D that uniquely for dragons you roll just a single die for age, and that they come in easy-to-predict fixed classes of hit points. And then without that table the OD&D reference to "The value of the hit dice, as well as the value of the breath weapon, will be subject to the maturity of the Dragon" wouldn't make sense, as there is no defined maturity scale. So in that light he sort of had to come up with a different mechanic for dragon breath.