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Post by tetramorph on Jul 21, 2018 16:59:05 GMT -6
As I am working on my rules summary / condensing, stuff is coming up for me. The light spells are bugging me right now. I do not like continual light. Not one bit. It takes away the light resource management game far to early in the game as an only level 2 spell. Ref: What is your source of light? Player: Oh, I cast continual light on an ace of spades and stuck it in my wizard-hat. Ref: Oh. Okay, so . . . I don't like that. Do you allow continual light to be cast on objects or only on a given area? That you can cast it on an object and then carry the object around is not clear to me from the rules as stated but it is the way austinjimm's playing group always played it so I just kept up that precedent and only questioned it just now. Also, I get why clerical light is equal to daylight. Only that light can scare away fell / undead. I like that. But it seems to me, again, in the name of the light resource-management game that the temporary spell should be the one that is brighter (Clerics) or covers more area (MUs), and that the continual spell should be nerfed a bit, less bright, illuminating less space. That way, you still have cool spells, but they do not simply eliminate the light resource-management game. Thoughts? Anybody house ruled any of this stuff in an interesting way? Fight on! |
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Post by delta on Jul 21, 2018 17:38:24 GMT -6
In my Book of Spells, I dialed the duration down to 1 week. As a more general rule, I don't allow any spell below 5th level to be permanent. To me, that's really the root of the problem; almost any such spell has campaign-deforming ramifications. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 21, 2018 17:53:15 GMT -6
I hear you tetramorph. Here's a couple of dust motes for your consideration... * Chainmail 2nd Ed. p29 (and 3rd Ed. p31) has the following antecedent spells: It's not explicit, but at least plausible that Wizard Light works the same way as Darkness; lasting until the wizard is attacked. * D&D's clerical- and magical-Continual Light spells both have a duration "until dispelled". This need not be within the scope of all campaign time. It might justifiably be within the scope of a game session, in which case the player trades the use of a spell for fiddling about with other light sources. * Mucking about with torches and lanterns to defeat ordinary darkness underground is a mundane challenge for normal-types (low level players) to overcome. When players reach heroic status they're basically met that challenge, and have moved on to "bigger things". I.e., it's okay to leave that challenge behind; let the game grow with the players. Notice how clerical-Continual Light is a 3rd level spell? Cleric get access to 3rd level spells at 6th level, which also happens to be when clerics achieve Hero-1 fighting capability. So clerical-Continual Light is available only to heroic-tier clerics. That's nice, but unfortunately it doesn't work out so neatly for M-Us. M-Us happen to reach Hero-1 FC at 7th level, so to limit magical-Continual Light to heroic M-Us and above, it would have to be a 4th level magical spell. Hope that's at least something to think about... |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 21, 2018 18:04:52 GMT -6
In my Book of Spells, I dialed the duration down to 1 week. As a more general rule, I don't allow any spell below 5th level to be permanent. To me, that's really the root of the problem; almost any such spell has campaign-deforming ramifications. I like that. With one exception. I LOVE that charm has no duration. IMC I've house-ruled that MUs have to keep track of anyone they've ever charmed. Every time they charm a new person ALL previously charmed characters get a new save! It has been kind of fun. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 21, 2018 18:18:08 GMT -6
I don't see the problem.
You've got to be at least a 3rd level magic-user to cast the spell. If by this time you haven't gathered enough treasure to buy a bunch of lantern oil and a hireling to carry it, you've got bigger problems than a light source. Plus you have to actually HAVE the Continual Light spell; not every magic-user does. And finally, surely one of the benefits of gaining levels is not having to worry so much about niggly little things like your light source.
Breaking the game into "the light-resource management game" and similar is over-analyzing the system. There is no requirement that each "subsystem" of the game maintain equal importance at all times. The spell is there precisely to give players the option of using it. If this "breaks" the "light-resource management system," maybe that isn't actually such a useful concept after all.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 21, 2018 18:26:23 GMT -6
* Chainmail 2nd Ed. p29 (and 3rd Ed. p31) has the following antecedent spells: It's not explicit, but at least plausible that Wizard Light works the same way as Darkness; lasting until the wizard is attacked. * D&D's clerical- and magical-Continual Light spells both have a duration "until dispelled". This need not be within the scope of all campaign time. It might justifiably be within the scope of a game session, in which case the player trades the use of a spell for fiddling about with other light sources. * Mucking about with torches and lanterns to defeat ordinary darkness underground is a mundane challenge for normal-types (low level players) to overcome. When players reach heroic status they're basically met that challenge, and have moved on to "bigger things". I.e., it's okay to leave that challenge behind; let the game grow with the players. Notice how clerical-Continual Light is a 3rd level spell? Cleric get access to 3rd level spells at 6th level, which also happens to be when clerics achieve Hero-1 fighting capability. So clerical-Continual Light is available only to heroic-tier clerics. That's nice, but unfortunately it doesn't work out so neatly for M-Us. M-Us happen to reach Hero-1 FC at 7th level, so to limit magical-Continual Light to heroic M-Us and above, it would have to be a 4th level magical spell. Ways, you are always helpful to me simply by reminding me not to forget about Chainmail. Good stuff. I like making them function like invisibility. That makes a lot of sense. If I ruled it this way, by an analogy my players would get, they would moan once about "nerfing," but then have to admit that it was fair. With regards to your dispel interpretation: do you mean that they have to maintain concentration? So, like, they can't cast another spell until they have dispelled the continual light? That, also, would make a whole lot of sense. This would make the spell's duration analogous to conjure elemental or wall of fire. Again, I can hear my players groan and then admit that it is fair. I get what you are saying about, kind of, "graduating" to a higher level of play that doesn't have to worry about silly things like light. But I like wargames as games of resource management and light seems so key to me. I don't want to see it go away quite so easily. I love your argument about heroic level play, etc. But, to go with something like delta's "equivalent HD," as a measure for normal/heroic/superheroic, then, given spell abilities, I really consider all classes normal/heroic/superheroic at the same tiers of levels (1-4, 4-7, 7+). At least, that is my experience in terms of actual play. That makes MUs get continual light WAY too soon! (And, also, remember my house rules [that you helped me to reason through!]. MUs and CLs get fewer spells per level but they get access to spell levels equivalent to their experience level [or, with clerics, lvl -1]. So I may have simply, straightforwardly, unbalanced things at the table that way. And now I am crying about my owie and trying to find a solution. The answer is probably to go back to the original tables. But I love my house rules, so I am going to stick with them for now and try to "fix" the spell rules for my campaign!) But also, Ways, Delta, and folks, would you interpret these light spells such that you could or could not cast it on an object you could then carry about? In other words, I see about three options: 1.) cast on an area and it remains only in that area, 2.) cast on an object, carry it about with you, 3.) cast in an area that follows as a radius emanating from the caster. Which is it? And how do you guys actually rule it? |
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Post by delta on Jul 21, 2018 21:20:38 GMT -6
I'll note on charm that it echoes the transition from Vol-1 to Sup-I (i.e., complete permanence to regular saving throws). My take-away: At some point with low-level, long-duration spells almost all of us realize the need for some restriction on them at some point.
I do allow casting any light spell in both a fixed area and on a movable, non-living, object (even though that latter option didn't appear in the rules until AD&D's continual light). If Gandalf could do that, then so should our magic-users; I do think it's generally important that we honor people's expectations coming from the most prominent literary examples ("As the wizard passed on ahead up the great steps, he held his staff aloft, and from its tip there came a faint radiance...", Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Ch. IV).
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Post by hamurai on Jul 22, 2018 0:25:43 GMT -6
* D&D's clerical- and magical-Continual Light spells both have a duration "until dispelled". This need not be within the scope of all campaign time. It might justifiably be within the scope of a game session, in which case the player trades the use of a spell for fiddling about with other light sources. That's similar how we play it. The spell pretty much lasted until the wizard regained his spells, at which point he could immediately sacrifice a casting of Continual Light to have the original casting continue. In effect, it meant trading a casting for a permanent light source which also had the merit of working underwater! We often found a use for it. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 22, 2018 4:22:03 GMT -6
I do allow casting any light spell in both a fixed area and on a movable, non-living, object (even though that latter option didn't appear in the rules until AD&D's continual light). Don't forget BTPBD: (Continual Light, b1 p20) "this light can be transfered to an object, such as a stick". |
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Post by gemini476 on Jul 22, 2018 13:37:13 GMT -6
When it comes to Continual Light obsoleting torches, it's worth remembering that Continual Light is not as permanent as it seems at first glance. Much like a torch can be snuffed out by the DMG's windy room or a lantern dropped in surprise and broken, a Magic-User who relies solely on Continual Light will be in for a rude surprise if they're ever met by a Thaumaturgist's Dispell Magic or Beholder's antimagic (or similar things).
Given the apparent rules for fighting in darkness* (and the danger posed by the things that can cause that), you never want to rely on just one type of light source.
A torch is 1/6th of a GP, and a flask of oil 2GP (and multipurpose) - I'll go out on a limb and guess that you have more gold pieces than you have 2nd-level spells, so at the very least you'd want to have some of the former around to light up if some jerk shuts off your lights.
*Compare Chainmail 2E p29, "only those troops that can see in darkness can then attack and defend".
Chainmail p.26, "When Sprites attack they suffer no casualties during the frist round of melee; thereafter, surprise wears off and the defenders are able to note the minor shadows and air distortions caused by the Sprites."
Chainmail p.26, "When invisible Elves (and Fairies) cannot attack -- or be attacked unless located by an enemy with the special ability to detect hidden or invisible troops"
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 25, 2018 16:51:52 GMT -6
So would it nerf them to much to say:
M-U Light is like a torch; Clerical light like daylight (turns away fell, but limited in duration)
Continual light (for both M-Us and Clerics) is like a lantern and lasts a day (until MU needs to memorize spells again)
Or, clerics could get a torch-like continual light up-front and save a limited-duration fell-turning daylight spell as the higher spell?
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 26, 2018 9:23:48 GMT -6
I HATED Continual Light. I was running Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, but with dark creepers swapped out for the kuo-toa, and they were creating darkness to give them a tactical advantage all the time. So my players left, waited until the cleric had cast Continual Light 100 times, and then went back in. I couldn't get reinforcements moving in fast enough to negate all those Continual Lights.
I later made a ruling that a single cleric only has one Continual Light, ever. When he casts it again, he just moves the same light to a new spot.
About 10 years ago, I was toying with the notion of parsing out Light and Continual Light into Light I, Light II, Light III, and quantify the candlepower of each, as well as spreading out the duration. But it was too much work.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 26, 2018 10:35:52 GMT -6
Actually, upon contemplation, I think Stormcrow gets at the bottom of my worries and waysoftheearth provides my best clue. The problem was that I was in campaigns where folks could cast PERPETUAL (really) light on a coin and walk around with it like a flash light forever. But with the point made from Chainmail about "until attacked," and other folks points about continual light NOT meaning "perpetual" light helps me get around that. So long as I do not allow continual like to be a.) cast on an object (only "light" can do that) or b.) last forever, then the problem is solved. The players can decide to burn a spell so as not to worry about light sources, if they want to. Better, they can hire folks to carry lanterns and manage oil. We could even abstract it to, say, 10gp per delve and call it even (for higher level parties). I think I will increase the range of the regular light spell. As written, it is 8 times less than continual light. If continual light has a d24" then it has a r12" which illumines the next exploration turn. But light only has d3" giving only a 15 foot radius. If, instead, we halved continual light to get the dimensions of the regular light spell, then we would have d12", so r6" which illumines one move ahead. That seems fair to me. Thanks for helping me reason this out. I love solutions that mess with the rules as written as little as possible. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 27, 2018 1:28:29 GMT -6
So my players left, waited until the cleric had cast Continual Light 100 times LOL! How is this even possible? Being an obsessive pedant, I note that M&M p19 says (Spells & Levels) The number in each column … indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure)" (emphasis mine). So... even if you allowed spell casting "between adventures" (which, FWIW, I do too)... one spell per turn of campaign time away from the adventure wouldn't seem unreasonable. So, what was the rest of the game world doing while the cleric spent years meditating on light spells? Who was paying for food and lodgings? What other opportunities came and went..? Did the fighters become fat, lazy, alcoholics? LOL!  |
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 27, 2018 7:57:33 GMT -6
Being an obsessive pedant, I note that M&M p19 says (Spells & Levels) The number in each column … indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure)" (emphasis mine). So... even if you allowed spell casting "between adventures" (which, FWIW, I do too)... one spell per turn of campaign time away from the adventure wouldn't seem unreasonable. So, what was the rest of the game world doing while the cleric spent years meditating on light spells? Possessing a certain number of spells per adventure obviously doesn't mean you don't know any spells when you're not on an adventure. Since anyone is quite capable of going on a new adventure every day, there's no reason to think you can't memorize Continual Light once per day of adventure. And if you can memorize it once per day of adventure, there's no reason why you can't memorize it once per day of no adventure. Therefore, there's no reason why a Conjurer or (better) a Bishop can't produce one permanently lit object every day, or 100 such objects in 100 days. But is this really an effective use of your time? As for duration: continual means "continues... until dispelled," per the 2nd level magic-user spell description. It's permanent. |
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Post by gemini476 on Jul 27, 2018 8:55:42 GMT -6
I HATED Continual Light. I was running Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, but with dark creepers swapped out for the kuo-toa, and they were creating darkness to give them a tactical advantage all the time. So my players left, waited until the cleric had cast Continual Light 100 times, and then went back in. I couldn't get reinforcements moving in fast enough to negate all those Continual Lights. I later made a ruling that a single cleric only has one Continual Light, ever. When he casts it again, he just moves the same light to a new spot. About 10 years ago, I was toying with the notion of parsing out Light and Continual Light into Light I, Light II, Light III, and quantify the candlepower of each, as well as spreading out the duration. But it was too much work. As far as I'm able to tell, I think that one casting of AD&D's Continual Darkness might be sufficient to snuff out all 100 Continual Lights in one go. OD&D's one is unwritten, but given that their Chainmail functions counter each other I'd call that a fair reading.
Not that this helps the AD&D Dark Creepers, since they're going by ordinary Darkness and, while they can instantly snuff out all nonmagical illumination in the area, snuffing out magical illumination has them rolling on the terrible "magical frost" category of item saving throws. Metal, wood and stone (all common targets for Continual Light) all have that save at 1, and it's only really effective at messing up glass and liquids.
If you really want to counter Continual Light, there's four obvious options. 1. Dispel Magic gets half of them in one shot. 2. Charm Person can get all of them in one shot if the Cleric has Dispel Magic. 3. Anti-magic is really nasty against Continual Lights. Snuff them all out at once, no save. 4. Let Dark Creepers and Stalkers counter (Continual) Light.
But, of course, in the original module the only Continual Light is the one that f*ge the Kexy has, and camping outside for the 50 days required for that is likely to give you 50 encounter checks. And remember, it's set deep underground. Hope you brought 50 days' worth of provisions and have something to do in the Depths of the Earth for two months.
But the original module doesn't have Dark Creepers either, so I suppose that's a bit of a moot point.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 27, 2018 17:28:01 GMT -6
Possessing a certain number of spells per adventure obviously doesn't mean you don't know any spells when you're not on an adventure. Agree. I even said so in the part of my post you quoted. Since anyone is quite capable of going on a new adventure every day, there's no reason to think you can't memorize Continual Light once per day of adventure. If that's how you run it, that's fine. On the other hand, the 3LBBs advise that a dungeon expedition takes a week. They also describe several other "between adventure" activities in terms of weeks, including measuring the passage of campaign time in weeks. So I find it convenient to run "town time" in turns that are a week long. In my game "town time" is the "down time" between adventures; players (PCs) are assumed to be resting, recouping, regrouping, and generally operating at a low-stress level compared to time "on adventure". I.e., I don't assume that magical-types are spell factories during their down time. YMMV and that's fine. Good luck to you. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 28, 2018 7:50:37 GMT -6
If that's how you run it, that's fine. [...] YMMV and that's fine. Good luck to you. How about telling me "Bless your heart" and have done with it? They also say, in the same place, that "The time for dungeon adventures considers only preparations and a typical, one day descent into the pits." If YOU want to interpret that as taking multiple days to memorize spells, YMMV and that's fine, good luck to you. It doesn't say that, though. "Preparations" could mean anything. It's a rule of thumb for abstract time-keeping, not a description of magical physics. Also notice that a wilderness turn, equaling one day, includes "days of rest and recuperation." At the very least, by this hyper-parsing of the text, there should be some unspecified number of days in the wilderness where it SHOULD be possible to rememorize spells. Surely that's part of "recuperation"? I wouldn't extend a week's preparation for a dungeon expedition to mean any time spent in town is resolved in week-turns. It's just saying that when your group goes on a dungeon expedition, the referee should advance the campaign calendar one week to allow the abstract preparation to take a suitable amount of time. Do you also require that a week spent not playing the game equals a week that passes in the game world? That's a rule that very few people follow, mostly because it comes from a time when it was expected you'd have players clamoring at your door every day to play the game, which is not typical nowadays. Yes, sure, everyone can do it one's own way. That doesn't really get at how the game is supposed to work. We have the benefit of knowledge outside of the original rule books to tell us what they meant. |
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Post by scottyg on Jul 28, 2018 8:37:48 GMT -6
Put me in the'I don't see a problem' camp. Au contrair, I think the spell is there to solve the fiddly, boring 'light-resource management game' problem. If you really want to liven your game up with more light-management resource conundrums, toss in a few dispel magic spots, or have more NPCs use the spell. Having a party with no torches or lanterns walk across a dispel magic trap will teach them not to neglect their light-resource management game!
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 28, 2018 13:07:07 GMT -6
(shrug) I didn’t and don’t see a problem, I merely changed the duration of the continual light spell. I made the game my own, just as the co-authors of the game suggested I do. But, piper, if you changed the duration of the spell then you did, in fact, see just exactly my problem. And I've decided to fix it the same way you did! See you soon! |
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