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Post by tetramorph on Jul 20, 2018 9:41:46 GMT -6
Still making my summary and condensed document.
Okay, so, magic jar. Wow. I think I've got it, but:
What is necessary in order to annihilate the magic-user?
Destroy: a.) magic jar b.) above and body of magic user c.) above and creature possessed
I've seen it interpreted as a.). But what seems implicit to me from the order of the last two sentences of the spell description is b.). And I could see how someone might even interpret it as c.).
So, how do you interpret it?
I'm also open to any other insights about this crazy spell!
Fight on!
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Post by delta on Jul 20, 2018 10:35:43 GMT -6
A convoluted spell indeed. (Link: my blog investigation.) A related question is: Can the spell ever end, or is the casting magic-user permanently in the "jarred" state? (OD&D: Not stated; S&S: "until dispelled"; AD&D: "Special"). What are the possible effects of dispel magic cast on the jar, original body, or possessed body? I tend to interpret the spell using as emblematic the Lieber Fafhrd/Gray Mouser story "Adept's Gambit". Therein, the talisman of the wizard Ahura is actually his own still-functioning "stone-crusted heart and brain and lungs and guts", and when Mouser puts a dagger through them, he dies immediately. (Now, Fafhrd had simultaneously crushed his real body's skull and skewered him through with a sword, but I read that as incidental.) That said, my most literal reading of Vol-1 is pretty clearly (a).
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 20, 2018 13:22:36 GMT -6
How I choose to handle it for my Majestic Wilderlands
Magic Jar (Magic-User, 5th Level) Range: See below, Duration: See below; Art: Skull
When the spell is cast the caster’s soul is transferred to an object within 30 feet of the caster’s body. From the object the caster can possess his original body or another creature or person’s body. The target has to be within 120 feet of the object and gets a save versus spells. The caster can return his soul to the object at any time from any distance. If the inhabited body is slain, the caster’s soul also returns to the object from any distance.
If it continues to exist, the caster can opt to return his soul to his original body and end the spell. If the original body is slain or dies from old age, the caster’s soul remain tied to the object and is still capable of possessing the body of another creature or person.
If the object is ever destroyed with the caster’s soul within, the soul is lost. If the object is destroyed and the caster's soul is currently in another body then the spell ends and the caster remains in control of the new body. The caster can then cast Magic Jar again and start the process over. The caster is aware of the loss of the object his soul was tied too.
This spell cannot be used by elves as their spirit is tied to the Majestic Wilderlands in a manner similar to this spell.
Casters of evil intent will use this spell to possess a series of unwilling victims. Casters of good intent will create magical automatons and possess them for their bodies or use a willing host.
Focused Art: The target’s save is made with disadvantage.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 21, 2018 7:34:56 GMT -6
A convoluted spell indeed. (Link: my blog investigation.) A related question is: Can the spell ever end, or is the casting magic-user permanently in the "jarred" state? (OD&D: Not stated; S&S: "until dispelled"; AD&D: "Special"). What are the possible effects of dispel magic cast on the jar, original body, or possessed body? I tend to interpret the spell using as emblematic the Lieber Fafhrd/Gray Mouser story "Adept's Gambit". Therein, the talisman of the wizard Ahura is actually his own still-functioning "stone-crusted heart and brain and lungs and guts", and when Mouser puts a dagger through them, he dies immediately. (Now, Fafhrd had simultaneously crushed his real body's skull and skewered him through with a sword, but I read that as incidental.) That said, my most literal reading of Vol-1 is pretty clearly (a). Delta, thanks for the link. Lots of stuff to ponder. And thanks for reminding me of "The Adept's Gambit," that helps make a lot of sense of it. Yes, of course, I forgot about that whole: "is this thing permanent or not." Since there was nothing in the spell demanding it be interpreted as permanent, the last time this was cast at the table we interpreted it to mean that once the MU returns from the possessed to the jar, and then from the jar to his own body, the spell ends. Perhaps I ought to interpret it as permanent, or until dispelled. That would certainly make it more sinister and would help to curb its use. I've had to judge its use twice at my table as a ref. One by a punk who just enjoys going off half cocked, regardless of affect on party. But the other was performed in a very calculated way. The party came upon a lair of 4 black dragons. He used magic jar to possess the largest one and proceeded to eat the other dragons. He is lawful (and played very, if humorously, so). So he chose to use the cleric's cross as his jar! That helped lighten what was otherwise some pretty dark-feeling magic. Both times I've had to judge this the spell seems inherently dark, or evil, or sinister. Whatever word you want to use. There is something "off" about it. Having permanence as a cost of such a dark spell makes some sense. But it also seems to me that there should be some kind of relationship to alignment. Either only chaos can use it. Or each time you use it you move one degree closer to chaos. Or only chaos can even research it. Or something like that. Thoughts? Fight on!
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 21, 2018 15:18:18 GMT -6
robertsconley, the detail and clarity of your campaign is always an inspiration! Someday, maybe I will get there too. I am glad to see you interpret the spell as ending at will as well. Fight on!
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 15, 2018 6:53:46 GMT -6
I think of magic jars as sauron's ring or voldemort's horcruxes.
All nonlawful magic users able to cast magic jar will have one in their possession.
Eg.
"Grumbleyot has magic jarred himself inside a ring on his finger, of a tungsten alloy that is immune to fires under 6000 degrees F and magnetically induced to keep any metal that might crush or cut it at a 1" distance"
"Magic jar of the snow queen: a live dove made of pure diamond (AC 2, HD 4, reflects spells, ice breath weapon 2d6)"
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
Is this thing on?
Posts: 171
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Post by Torreny on Aug 19, 2018 19:09:19 GMT -6
When I was reading it yesterday, I had the impression that should the "Magic Jar" be destroyed while the MU's spirit is not in his own body, he gets annihilated, due to that spiritual link being severed. Perhaps they become trapped in a possessed body permanently?
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lige
Level 2 Seer
Posts: 42
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magic jar
Aug 22, 2018 0:38:59 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by lige on Aug 22, 2018 0:38:59 GMT -6
Since it’s basically the only rule for possession in the game how would you rule on its use by a ghost or demon?
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Post by verhaden on Sept 17, 2018 7:51:18 GMT -6
I would rule that, if the Magic-User is in the Magic-Jar when it's destroyed, the Magic-User is destroyed too. If the Magic-User is in his own body, he does not die. If the Magic-User is possessing someone else when the Magic-Jar is destroyed, he is stuck in that body and his original body dies. And it would be possible to exorcise the Magic-User's spirit from the possessed person, where it is then destroyed.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 31, 2020 8:45:24 GMT -6
I'm now in the process of converting my (still not quite complete) condensing of the LBB into my own house rules document so that my players and I don't have to look through multiple books to make rulings. I've returned to Magic Jar, and in the process of trying to tighten up house rules about it, I came better to understand some of the issues you all brought up in this thread. I think I came upon an insight. I think a lot of the confusion around this spell suddenly clears up when you decide to interpret it as 2 spells, not one. The first is the creation of the jar itself. The second is the attempt to possess from the jar. It never made sense to me that this was the kind of spell someone simply "memorized." Like in one round you could just grab a rock and leap out from the rock and possess the dragon. It should at least take a round for each action, or even a turn for the jar and then a round for the possession attempt. Heck, this magic is so dark, I've decided to make the creation of the jar more like the creation of a magic item, taking at least one full day of prep. The making of the jar is the "over-night spell prep." In other words, you can't just waltz into a dungeon and make this happen. You have to walk in with the jar. (And in game world, I am going to make it that the caster has to sacrifice a body part: like a finger or earlobe or something - maybe depending on the mass of the jar?) I thought about making the possession attempt take a full turn. But then I realized that nerfed the spell too much for my players. They would want to have the option to possess in combat. Well -- and my necromancers want to be able to do this to them! Here is my current wording: Some follow up commentary: I think this spell is inherently, Sword-and-Sorcery-style evil. So you move towards chaos if you use it, if you are not already there. Just as it takes a day of prep to generate the jar, it takes a day of dispelling to release the life-energy of the caster and allow it to return to the caster's body. Jar has to remain close to caster or it looses "radio contact" with the body. Like a remote control. In turn, if the body is lost while still jarred, the caster may attempt to possess another -- but they can only know someone (or something!) is there if the creature touches the jar. Touch is the only "sense" allowed the jar without "remote control" of the caster's body. Although the caster may choose to roam around in possessed body without worrying about the jar, I'm keeping the 12" range as also the range within which the caster can willingly (or emergency) return to the jar. delta , @robertconley, Red Baron , Torreny , @lige, verhaden - and any other interested party - please let me know what you think. Fight on!
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Post by mgtremaine on Oct 2, 2020 18:46:07 GMT -6
I had different take on it when I nerfed for C&C I discarded the possession part and focused on the ability to hide. No one ever used it and the duration maybe needs to be longer but the idea is there.
Magic Jar, Level 5 Wizard CT 1 R 150ft D 1 day/level SV n/a SR n/a COMP V,S,F
By casting this spell the Wizard willing hides his essence, body and all, inside a gem, crystal ball, or other such structure of at least 1000gp value. This vessel becomes the Magic Jar that holds casters essence. Once a Wizard has retreated into a Magic Jar they can not be attacked or damage by any means short of destroying the Magic Jar itself, which will instantly kill them and destroy their body. They could be brought back by a Wish or True Resurrection at this point.
Inside the Magic Jar the Wizard is only partially aware of what is going on outside, he or she can sense life forms but in a very limited way, he or she can sense the presence of living beings but nothing else. The Wizard is in a state of near suspended animation requiring no food, or drink, nor do they suffer from any physical affliction they might have carried with them such as poison or disease.
At any time the Wizard may leave the Magic Jar, spring forth in a flash light as the spell ends. Should the duration of the spell end the affect is the same the Wizard will appear before the Magic Jar.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Oct 4, 2020 23:55:12 GMT -6
It's an interesting spell, I'd say basically uniquely complex among OD&D "three books" spells. AD&D brought in a lot more highly complex ones like cacodemon and vision (though I guess some of these, like simulacrum, showed up as early as Supplement I).
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magic jar
Oct 12, 2020 8:52:50 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by linebeck on Oct 12, 2020 8:52:50 GMT -6
It seems more like a magic item than a spell. There is also the immediate question as to whether you can cast it more than once and have multiple magic jars to return to. If the answer is yes do you have to Annihilate all of them to annihilate the magic user?
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magic jar
Oct 12, 2020 10:50:53 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tetramorph on Oct 12, 2020 10:50:53 GMT -6
It seems more like a magic item than a spell. There is also the immediate question as to whether you can cast it more than once and have multiple magic jars to return to. If the answer is yes do you have to Annihilate all of them to annihilate the magic user? Yes. That is why I turned it into two spells.
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Post by linebeck on Oct 12, 2020 14:46:04 GMT -6
It seems like a fun spell as written the more I think about it (especially when you play around with the 120'/30' limits and use rocks as examples). I am assuming that (1) you can only possess someone within 120' of the jar; and (2) if the person you are possessing dies, you return to the jar regardless of how far away from it you are.
Scenario 1 (use to avoid death):
At home in my wizard's tower, I cast wizard lock on the door to my chambers (for safety). I then cast magic jar on an inconspicuous rock in the wall 120’ from my apprentices’ chambers and 30’ from my own chambers. I then possess my apprentice, and go out and adventure in his/her body. If I (in the body of my apprentice) am somehow killed during the adventure, I do not die but instead return to the wizard jar and then to my body. Even if my tower is looted while I am out, it is unlikely that anyone will think to loot an inconspicuous rock (although it could potentially radiate magic, but who has the time to detect ordinary looking walls for magic).
Scenario 2 (use to turn your foes against each other):
Opening a door in a dungeon, I see a room with 100 goblins. I close the door, wizard lock it, and then cast magic jar on an inconspicuous rock in the wall near the door. I then magic jar to the rock and then into the room on the other side of the wall and possess the nearest goblin. I attack the goblin next to me when killed, I go back to the rock. I then jump from the rock into another goblin with 120' of the rock, attack the goblin next to me, and when that body dies repeat the same procedure. The goblins would have no idea what is happening and only know that multiple of their allies seem to be attacking each other suddenly. Soon all the goblins are fighting amongst themselves. I then magic jar back to the rock and then to my own body and wait for them to kill each other.
Scenario 3 (use for infiltration):
I wish to assassinate the king. I magic jar into a rare and expensive magic scepter or some similar magic item after having left appropriate instructions to my apprentice to deliver it to the king (if it is not delivered to the king I just possess whoever has it, take it back to myself and try again). The king receives the magic gift and is delighted and keeps it near him at all times. I don't have to worry that he might check it for magic because it is magical.
I wait for the appropriate time when the king is alone with one of his guards and within 120' of his magic scepter. I then possess the guard and proceed to assassinate the king. I then kill myself (as the guard) which returns me to the scepter. I wait for someone to find the bodies. In the tumultuous aftermath of the king's assassination by one of his loyal guards, it should be easy for me to posses someone near the magic scepter. Then as that person I retrieve the scepter and smuggle it back out to myself.
Scenario 4 (use it to play catch with yourself):
I’m chasing after someone who is more than 120 feet away from me. I pick up a football and throw it after them in a long arc. Immediately after I throw the football (while it is still within 30' of me), I cast magic jar on football and then jump into the football ("my own" body collapses to the ground at this point). The football is still flying in the air. Once it is within 120' of the person I am chasing, I possess the person I am chasing and then turn around and catch the football before it hits the ground.
You could also magic jar your companion's arrows or sling shot bullets for a similar effect.
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