Looting baggage camp- prize or penalty?

[derv]

Reading the rules for off board baggage camps has me wondering if it was to be incorporated into a game as an objective, or if points were awarded, or if it was more of a surprise for the unaware moving through enemy territory. I mean, you essentially lose your unit unless you resolve a separate battle off board.

I guess I'm directing this question more towards Michael. Did you use these rules? How did you incorporate them? Were they intended more for campaigns where there was up keep?

I'm thinking points (coins) must have been awarded if you weren't fighting a separate mini battle.

I wouldn't mind hearing about a game you played that included off board baggage camps, if you have any. What did it add to the game?

What do you think is the best way of including baggage camps/trains in Chainmail?

[derv]

Anyone can chime in if they have any thoughts on the matter.

So, what I think I'm going to do is use the baggage camp in two ways. If an enemy comes into one move distance they will move off board for two turns and be able to return after that. They must cross back over the center line to gain the looted treasure. If they are engaged and eliminated or forced to retreat prior to that, they lose the loot and it goes back to the original coffer.


Any defenders near the baggage pathway that are within one move during those two turns will also be pulled off board. But, they will not be able to return to play. This will prevent amassing troops near the baggage camp or moving units too close during the two turn wait period.


If baggage is looted, it will be considered to be part of the other sides baggage camp and may be recovered in the same way. I'm thinking the loot will be assigned a random value based on the size of the armies point value. Perhaps quarter to half the value.

[Deleted]

We sometimes used baggage rules. Usually it was a bad thing; you've just lost control of a chunk of your army, often at a crucial point.

[derv]

Jun 13, 2018 15:06:49 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

We sometimes used baggage rules. Usually it was a bad thing; you've just lost control of a chunk of your army, often at a crucial point.

Okay, so it was intended as more of a penalty- kind of a trap. The idea is that your troops get side tracked from the task at hand in search of personal gain. They don't return to the battle because they have presumably headed for home with the loot instead.

Did you make exceptions for certain units? Allow a saving throw?

[Deleted]

Obedience rules for feudal knights are covered, and an army leader or sub leader would maintain control.

[clownboss]

What if I placed my baggage right in the middle of my opponent's starting point?

[derv]

Jun 13, 2018 21:27:28 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Obedience rules for feudal knights are covered, and an army leader or sub leader would maintain control.

Ah, then even our knights will run for the baggage unless other mounted troops are closer or they roll a 6.


Thanks for the input.

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2018 2:57:15 GMT -6 clownboss said:

What if I placed my baggage right in the middle of my opponent's starting point?

RTFR. Page 21.

[clownboss]

"Assume that each side has a baggage camp just behind their base line or point of entry onto the table."

Ah, look at that, they've thought about it.

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 13, 2018 16:25:41 GMT -6 derv said:

Okay, so it was intended as more of a penalty- kind of a trap. The idea is that your troops get side tracked from the task at hand in search of personal gain. They don't return to the battle because they have presumably headed for home with the loot instead.

Did you make exceptions for certain units? Allow a saving throw?

Presumably the side whose camp is being looted/sacked must also be demoralized by this undesirable circumstance?

[derv]

Jun 16, 2018 19:55:17 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Presumably the side whose camp is being looted/sacked must also be demoralized by this undesirable circumstance?

I would tend to agree. How would you apply effects to morale and for how long?

The off board baggage camp is an unusual rule as written in that it has bad outcomes for the looters (i.e. they are considered out of play for the game). It seems to just be a simple way of adding something different and unexpected to the game. It forces players to avoid coming within a normal moves distance from their opponents base line. It at least causes them to consider the risk to a unit. This can consequently force all actions towards the center line or possibly prolong moving away from your own base line. It offers a ref an element in the game that can add some challenge. Possibly it could be balanced with terrain or objectives that force players into strategic decisions.

[Deleted]

Or, MAYBE, it's based on historical precedent of the need of armies to carry non-combat material and the desire of most medieval solders to line their pockets, JUST LIKE IT SAYS IN THE RULES!!!

No, that couldn't POSSIBLY be it.

DOES EVERYBODY HAVE TO OVERCOMPLICATE EVERYTHING???

Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack!

READ A BOOK!!!!!

[derv]

Jun 17, 2018 16:59:48 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Or, MAYBE, it's based on historical precedent of the need of armies to carry non-combat material and the desire of most medieval solders to line their pockets, JUST LIKE IT SAYS IN THE RULES!!!

No, that couldn't POSSIBLY be it.

DOES EVERYBODY HAVE TO OVERCOMPLICATE EVERYTHING???

Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack!

READ A BOOK!!!!!

Michael are you on blood pressure meds? There's nothing being discussed here that should cause you to blow a gasket. No one's denying a historical aspect to the rule. My questions have to do with applying the written rule to a scenario as a Ref. It is a rules mechanic question. We are talking about a game.

I asked you for anecdotes because I'm working out whether it's worth including in a game. Furthermore, the rules state that the baggage camps can be brought on board. It goes into no detail about this. Yet this would obviously skirt any issues of losing a unit, unless loss through combat. What are the effects, morale or otherwise?

The obedience rules for knights would obviously still apply.

[Deleted]

* pant *
* wheeze *
* pant *
* wheeze *
* pant *
* wheeze *

[derv]

Someone call 911 stat!

[Deleted]

I honestly didn't get that we'd shifted to prospective use in a scenario.

In "Siege of Bodenberg," as well as "Viking Attack on a Hill Fort" scenarios, the baggage is on board as a major objective, but it's part of the objective.

Other than that I'd tend to run it based on the strategic situation; did the enemy scouts or flankers discover your baggage? Another possibility is that your army is still on the march when contacted by the enemy, in which case the baggage might indeed be brought onto the table. In that case the marching army would get victory points based on how many units made it off the opposite table edge.

Briefly, first answer the question "WHY is the baggage on the table?" The scenario should evolve logically from there.

[derv]

Jun 17, 2018 17:40:54 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I honestly didn't get that we'd shifted to prospective use in a scenario.

Maybe you should try reading my above posts in a different light Michael. Your last reply could have easily accompanied your first.

[Deleted]

Or maybe you should try writing them differently.

[derv]

Perhaps. Nuance is often a difficult thing to communicate when someone is trying to be polite and another appears to feel entitled.

Nuance aside. Stormcow can you see to type with your nose so firmly planted?

[Deleted]

HALT! IT'S HAMMERZEIT!

Aaaah, caps lock is why keyboards were invented.


derv: You're the wronged party here, but don't engage as you were about to. That's what moderators are for.

@gronanofsimmerya: Don't act like you think you're the alpha baboon, or you'll get shot with the tranquilizer gun.

Stormcrow: More like a pigeon, right, furiously cooing from the sidelines? Don't instigate.



---

Are you able and willing to continue this thread in a more civilized manner, gentlemen?
Or does the evil uncle have to send you to your rooms without the icecream dessert?

[rustic313]

I would think in a more extended campaign, one could play it as:

1) Short term pain: A number of troops are at risk of losing command/control and effectively being removed from play in the current battle.
2) Longer term gain: Said troops may have higher morale in future engagements. There may be some extra resources available for more troops or better equipped troops in the future.

[Deleted]

It's questionable how much of the baggage would make it to the Lord. Mostly in a situation like that it tends to be every man for himself and if nobody saw you take it, you didn't take it. Which lends its own possibilities to a RPG campaign.

[jacar]

Jun 12, 2018 17:16:42 GMT -6 derv said:

Reading the rules for off board baggage camps has me wondering if it was to be incorporated into a game as an objective, or if points were awarded, or if it was more of a surprise for the unaware moving through enemy territory. I mean, you essentially lose your unit unless you resolve a separate battle off board.

I guess I'm directing this question more towards Michael. Did you use these rules? How did you incorporate them? Were they intended more for campaigns where there was up keep?

I'm thinking points (coins) must have been awarded if you weren't fighting a separate mini battle.

I wouldn't mind hearing about a game you played that included off board baggage camps, if you have any. What did it add to the game?

What do you think is the best way of including baggage camps/trains in Chainmail?

I've actually never used baggage camps and only played one-off battles. I don't think they are all that useful unless playing a campaign or using them as some sort of objective like in a historical battle, as mentioned before.

If you are set upon using them, you could place them somewhere on the battlefield. It would add something to the battlefield's look. Otherwise, I'd suggest marking an area on the baseline where the baggage area is.

John

[derv]

Hi jacar, haven't seen you in these parts in awhile.

Thanks for the reply. My view of it was similar to your own- might be useful in a campaign or as an objective. Bottom line, the off board baggage rules were not intended to be a "to the victor goes the spoils" sorta thing.

Supposedly, the Landsknechts would have huge baggage trains following their regiments. These would be fairly slow moving affairs that required an escort.

[jacar]

Jun 21, 2018 18:59:42 GMT -6 derv said:

Hi jacar, haven't seen you in these parts in awhile.

Thanks for the reply. My view of it was similar to your own- might be useful in a campaign or as an objective. Bottom line, the off board baggage rules were not intended to be a "to the victor goes the spoils" sorta thing.

Supposedly, the Landsknechts would have huge baggage trains following their regiments. These would be fairly slow moving affairs that required an escort.

Hey Derv,

Yeah, "real life" keeping me busy and the lack of CM posts here lately have kept me away!

While I've no doubt Landsknechts could have larger baggage trains, most armies baggage train size would be relative to the size of the army. Really through the 30 years war and beyond, armies were supplied by baggage trains and by foraging, not different from their medieval and ancient counterparts. After that, supply systems started to become more efficient to handle even larger armies. But that's a different topic.

[waysoftheearth]

A casual observation might be that CM features "unit morale" rather than "whole army" morale.

The nearest thing to "whole army" morale appears to be the setting of victory thresholds (2nd Ed. p2; 3rd Ed. p6: "the game can continue until one side is reduced below a certain percentage of its original strength — 25%, 50%, 75%, or whatever") and/or the army commander rule (2nd Ed. p18 ; 3rd Ed. p21: "If the army commander is killed or captured, all units on that side must check morale as if they had taken excess casualties, and at a minus 2 from the dice."), albeit the latter still causes individual unit morale tests.

If you wanted to bring baggage into play, and you wanted a sacked friendly camp to negatively affect "whole army" morale, sacking the camp could count toward army losses, and/or trigger morale tests similar to loss of the army commander (maybe without the -2 adjustment). Or it could negatively adjust the side's morale checks thereafter.

Just kicking tyres.

[chicagowiz]

Jun 21, 2018 16:54:26 GMT -6 jacar said:

I've actually never used baggage camps and only played one-off battles. I don't think they are all that useful unless playing a campaign or using them as some sort of objective like in a historical battle, as mentioned before.

If you are set upon using them, you could place them somewhere on the battlefield. It would add something to the battlefield's look. Otherwise, I'd suggest marking an area on the baseline where the baggage area is.

John

They come into play for campaign games, for sure. Capturing an enemy's supply is akin to taking out whole units and can have long lasting implications.