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Post by aldarron on May 21, 2018 11:28:02 GMT -6
So, put me down for Crimson Blades 2. ... CB2 sounds interesting, but is it even based on 0e? I'm not informed enough to know, and I don't mean to divert the thread into what constitutes, clone, neoclone and new game. I'm asking out of curiosity since I had got the impression CB2 was pretty much it's own thing, with not much tie in to any particular edition.
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Post by Malcadon on May 21, 2018 15:05:10 GMT -6
CB2 sounds interesting, but is it even based on 0e? I'm not informed enough to know, and I don't mean to divert the thread into what constitutes, clone, neoclone and new game. I'm asking out of curiosity since I had got the impression CB2 was pretty much it's own thing, with not much tie in to any particular edition. Well... it pretty much it's own thing.
The system is fairly modern, polish and uniformed, mostly using dice pools to score a success on a single die, with d6s used for all rolls.
The thing I really like about it that really captures OD&D with Chainmail combat is the way it handles Hit Dice. Instead of only being used for determining Hit Points, your Hit Dice score is more akin to Chainmail's Fighting Capacity. In this case, you get an extra HD so many levels (with bonus used only for HP determination), so at 10th level (the highest you can attain), a Fighter has 6(+2) HD, a Barbarian has 5(+5), a Sorcerer has 3(+2), and everyone else is 4(+2). For determining Hit Points, instead of rolling a die an each level for extra hip points, you re-roll you HP total hoping for a higher result, otherwise you keep your old HP score. You seldom get much, even at high levels, with most classes getting 15 HP at 10th level on average, or 20+ if you're lucky or a Fighter or Barbarian (40 HP is the highest anyone could ever hope to attain under this system).
Hit Dice also determines how many dice you can roll in combat: With a one-handed weapon, a high-level character can ether strike a group of stock-human enemies with individual attacks, or machine gun individual enemies with multiple attacks; or with a two-handed weapon, the same character can strike a think-shelled monster or a heavily armored opponent with a massive attack that compiles all your HD into a single damage roll. With how armor works in this game (AC replaced with dodge/shield-based Defense Class while body armor provides Damage Reduction) DR applies to individual damage rolls, so they are easily overwhelmed by massive attacks. Due to DR and DC bones at every so many levels, characters are less reliant on healing magic and characters have less downtime to heal-up naturally.
Much like the higher "Type-X" Demons in Eldritch Wizardry (with low HD but d10s & d12s used for HP), large and powerful monsters in CB2 generally have lower HD than their D&D counterparts, but with large HP bonus to better reflect the game's Fighting Capacity-based approach. For example, a CB2 True Dragon has 6(+60) to ether deal a out a bunch of claw attacks or a powerful bite attack, with the HP bonus allowing it to have on average 81 hit points! It's Defense Class is low enough to make that fairly easy to hit, but their Damage Reduction is twice that of full plate armor, so they require powerful (high-level) Fighters and Barbarians with big weapons (or mid-level with demon-bound weapons) to penetrate their thick scaly hides.
Basically, I like how the game turns high-level characters into larger-than-life heroes of legend capable of making short work of normally large threatening beasts and mobs, instead of just being damage sponges who slowly whittles enemies down with single static damage rolls (which just drags on and on, unless you have a wizard who can make it rain fire).
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Post by Porphyre on May 22, 2018 14:23:23 GMT -6
I like Iron Falcon as a good OD&D + Suppl I
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artikid
Level 3 Conjurer
Artist for hire
Posts: 70
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Post by artikid on May 23, 2018 11:31:45 GMT -6
Either WBFMAG or S&W Core. Can't really chose.
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Post by talysman on May 23, 2018 12:04:06 GMT -6
Although I never completed/published Liber Zero, I did print a couple tables. Those, plus Target 20 and a list of spell names from the OD&D books, are what I typically use to actually run a game.
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Post by tetramorph on May 24, 2018 13:02:11 GMT -6
talysman, where can I see those Liber Zero tables you did publish?
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Post by talysman on May 24, 2018 16:46:38 GMT -6
talysman, where can I see those Liber Zero tables you did publish? I thought I had some downloads, but the only table I could find on my blog that I think you'd find useful is the monster build tables. I probably put some other tables under a different label and can't track 'em down now. I had some kind of character class table, but I've internalized that and work off memory these days. Also have a spell table and a treasure table that needs reworking.
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Post by tetramorph on May 25, 2018 6:08:42 GMT -6
Thanks, talysman. I do wish you would write up more of your Liber Zero!
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Post by talysman on May 25, 2018 10:45:53 GMT -6
Thanks, talysman. I do wish you would write up more of your Liber Zero! I'm actually thinking at this point it should be more of a book of tables. Basically, my own JG Ready Reference Sheets.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 25, 2018 18:51:26 GMT -6
I'd buy that
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arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 229
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Post by arkansan on May 25, 2018 21:46:56 GMT -6
I'd buy that Seconded. I love supplements with lots of useful tables.
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Post by owlorbs on Jun 16, 2018 6:16:05 GMT -6
Delving Deeper is my favorite, bring on the annotated ed.!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 15:00:57 GMT -6
Though I've played more sessions using S&W Whitebox and SoTU over the years, and I admire Delving Deeper and Iron Falcon, after all these years my personal favourite is Spellcraft & Swordplay - where the speculative 'Well what if OD&D went that way instead' is backed up by being fun to play. I love the Chainmail-style spellcasting, the big d**n bonuses for magic items, the wargame DNA, the advice and options. Jason did a proper job there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 21:15:35 GMT -6
I never stopped using the 3 Little Brown Books.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 11, 2018 5:26:13 GMT -6
I never stopped using the 3 Little Brown Books. That's me as well. I think the clones were nice because they helped expose OD&D-like philosophies to players who had never experienced them, but I never left my LBB either because I like the way they are written. Not to say I don't tweak things a little....
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Post by ffilz on Jul 11, 2018 8:52:43 GMT -6
I never stopped using the 3 Little Brown Books. That's me as well. I think the clones were nice because they helped expose OD&D-like philosophies to players who had never experienced them, but I never left my LBB either because I like the way they are written. Not to say I don't tweak things a little.... I never really played much OD&D back in the day, having quickly shifted to AD&D (and before that ran more C&S than OD&D), but I kept my boxed set. When 2e came out, I started to abandon D&D altogether, not coming back until I picked up Arcana Unearthed and D&D 3.0 and started running an AU campaign (soon shifting to 3.5 as the base). Then about the time 4.0 came out, I dropped that and had started to join the OSR. I briefly ran AD&D (long enough for a player to give me a DMG since I had only kept my PH from back in the day) and then switched to OD&D for a short face to face game, and then OD&D for play by post. Now I'm about to join an AD&D (1e) play by post. So I would tend to stick with OD&D or AD&D. But I am curious what might be out there of value from the clones (and not so clones as people take the open texts and take off in their own direction). I use the setting development material from SWN in my Traveller gaming. I'm not going to switch to single save, or 3.x style saves, or ascending AC, preferring to stick with the core rule structure of OD&D or AD&D, and would be unlikely to switch classes (though it would be interesting to develop OD&D or AD&D versions of the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved classes - though deciding how to keep the flavor of the feat and prestige class driven advancement from the 3.x structure into OD&D/AD&D would be challenging). So what else is out there? I've long had a suspicion that Lamentations of the Flame Princess would be a good read, and could be sold on that basis (so sell me...). Are there other real good ones that are more than just a codification of house rules? Frank
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 11, 2018 9:58:32 GMT -6
I never really played much OD&D back in the day, having quickly shifted to AD&D (and before that ran more C&S than OD&D)... Probably topic for another thread, but I'd love to hear your take on C&S some time. I owned a copy and promptly gave up on it due to the small font size. I am curious what might be out there of value from the clones (and not so clones as people take the open texts and take off in their own direction). As am I, which is why I keep looking at clones to see how they do things. In the old days we had "D&D variant" articles in Dragon magazine but today folks make clones.
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Post by ffilz on Jul 11, 2018 11:47:50 GMT -6
I never really played much OD&D back in the day, having quickly shifted to AD&D (and before that ran more C&S than OD&D)... Probably topic for another thread, but I'd love to hear your take on C&S some time. I owned a copy and promptly gave up on it due to the small font size. I'll have to do that. Hmm, which subboard should I start such a thread in? I don't have a very good idea of what all is out there for clones, and certainly can't just go purchasing them all... So I need to be sold on specific clones... Frank
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 11, 2018 16:09:01 GMT -6
Probably topic for another thread, but I'd love to hear your take on C&S some time. I owned a copy and promptly gave up on it due to the small font size. I'll have to do that. Hmm, which subboard should I start such a thread in? You might try "Third Party" and other Non-TSR Classics.
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Post by ffilz on Jul 11, 2018 17:18:36 GMT -6
I'll have to do that. Hmm, which subboard should I start such a thread in? You might try "Third Party" and other Non-TSR Classics. Something posted there. Frank
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Post by atlantean on Jul 15, 2018 12:08:08 GMT -6
Iron Falcon.
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Post by simrion on Jul 15, 2018 17:33:48 GMT -6
Delving Deeper I was a BX/AD&D kid and I love those games (and their clones) but I’ve grown to appreciate the earliest incarnations of D&D and its pulpy fairytale feel. Same here, started with B/X and "graduated" to AD&D (1E of course.) I find myself drawn to S&W Complete for it's simplicity, elegance and just the right touch of "OD&D with Supplements" to hit my "sweet spot."
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Post by Malcadon on Jul 16, 2018 8:33:55 GMT -6
My favorite 0e clone is a game that to me feels like the world's most bad-ass RPG ever!
The one with that cool cover that looks like every '80s heavy metal album (and comic) ever! With interior art by diverse artists with diverse styles, full of raw violence (almost cartoonishly so) and casual nudity spiced with unabashed cheesecake/beefcake attire (to the point of coming off as over-the-top gay erotica... as it should), as well as otherworldly landscapes that may or may not have came of an artist's acid-trip (you know it did!); all like something out of a '70s teenage stoner's van... man! All with a vibe more towards the weird and exotic sci-fi/fantasy of the pulp-era than the boring stock medieval trappings everyone and their dog like to pump-out for some reason.
The one that takes the open-ended nature of old-school games and the consistency of "new-school" games, by reducing combat mechanics to stupidly simple abstractions that allows for quicker action rounds and a greater focus on imagining and narrating the action instead of "doing the math". With combat mechanics that is open-ended to what characters can do, that encourages players to go beyond mindless hack-n-slash actions. The one that makes it easier for high-level characters to quickly take down powerful monsters so the game is not halted to repetitive "grinding". The one that goes beyond Tolkien with character options and allows for a wide range of classes and races ripe for a kitchen-sink-fantasy-stew. The one that eschew cheap game-balance mechanics like level-caps. The one that rejects the fire-and-forget spell-casting. The one that treats each newly discovered magic item and powerful monster as some unique thing, and to not throw a bunch of them at the players until they loose their wonder. The one that rewards good role-playing and political theater just like combat and exploration, and is not afraid to give characters armies and holdings well before reaching 9th level. The one that encourages unabashed greed and mindless debauchery for the sake of catharsis and escapism.
I cant think of the name because it is not real! Once you wake up, you quickly forget the dream. If I could give it a name, it would be:
\,,/_ Pipedream Fantasy: The Role-Playing Game _\,,/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 18:12:10 GMT -6
Iron Falcon for sure
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 19, 2018 7:01:58 GMT -6
I prefer Swords & Wizardry Core Rules (not White Box or Complete) as it is the closest clone to what I think is an ur-D&D. A form of D&D that is stripped of everything but the bare essentials. Which makes it a great foundation on which to build one's own take on D&D like I did with the Majestic Wilderlands supplement. My view is that the feel of OD&D(core book only) is different just enough to be it own thing. Something that is carried over to it's clone like White Box, Delving Deeper. It wasn't until addition of the Greyhawk supplement that classic D&D assumed a form recognized by most hobbyist today. I still retained some core book ideas like using variations of d6 rolls for the hit points of the different classes rather than using different type of dice (d4, d4, d8, etc). For those who are interested I wrote a well received answer on the differences between the editions of D&D over on the stack exchange site. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/13212/what-are-the-big-differences-between-the-dd-editions
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bravewolf
Level 4 Theurgist
I don't care what Howard says.
Posts: 109
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Post by bravewolf on Jul 22, 2018 22:16:55 GMT -6
If we are admitting any of the ultra-lite OD&D clones, I enjoyed the heck out of Searchers of the Unknown. As long as your don't mind winging monsters & treasures, I could see using it for campaign play. What do I like about it? I like the chart-less combat. Free-form spells are cool, but I would be inclined to have PCs make up two spells to start with - ones that they write - and go from there. It's convenient to be able to hand players a single page for rules, too.
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Post by flailsnail75 on Aug 23, 2018 19:52:02 GMT -6
We’ve been playing S&W White Box from Seattle Hill Games latey and enjoying it. It’s got everything I like about the original 3 books plus the thief class which I also like. Plus a soft cover is only $3.77 on lulu.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 26, 2018 19:58:14 GMT -6
I held off about answering this for a while, I wanted to go ahead and read more rules before weighing in. Mostly, I'm a lurker here, so y'all don't know my weird permutations of all things RPG.
My vote goes to Swords & Wizardry White Box.
It looks like the Holmes D&D and AD&D1e that I grew up with, without being unnecessarily encumbered by minutiae. You see, my method of playing is "wing everything but the player's to-hit and saving rolls" but when it comes to specifics about what the character can do, I see no limits. Wants to play a Soren from "Out Of The Silent Planet?" Great, it will take me ten minutes to work up a framework. Intelligent hyena? Got it covered. Cool "Cyclops" race they downloaded? Great! I don't care about balance between characters, 3e and 4e totally burned me out on that. As a DM, I want to make sure everyone gets to shine at least once an encounter... which is always tailored not only to the characters played, but the people playing.
I got off track there. I like S&W WB because it looks like what I lnow how to play but is open ended enough for me to throw in everything I choose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 19:54:36 GMT -6
With the caveat that my knowledge is not encyclopedic, I think Matt Finch's Swords & Wizardry is the best 0E clone. I have two specific versions in mind: Core and Complete. The most significant difference is that Core is just the four traditional classes, while Complete includes others.
Here are some of the things that make it so good:
1. The entire game in presented in a single book well under 150 pages.
2. Last I checked, the .pdf of both versions was available for free download from the Frog God Games website. (It's also available in print for purchase.)
3. There are a handful of design notes explaining why some choices were made (where 0E rules less than clear or an alternative rule is a possibility).
4. The DM's section is very strong and presents some very useful concrete guidelines that are really helpful (e.g., the monster creation rules).
If I were to write my own rules, I'd do plenty of things differently (of course). But I really admire Swords & Wizardry. It's very well done.
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Post by murquhart72 on Oct 3, 2018 16:01:44 GMT -6
WE NEED A POLL!
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