arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 229
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Post by arkansan on May 11, 2018 22:59:10 GMT -6
Just as it says on the tin. Which of the many 0e clones is your favorite? Why? Have any of you gone back to using straight OD&D now that the pdfs are accessible again?
I don't have a favorite personally, I've only ran S&W WhiteBox and OD&D itself. I'm digging the look of Blueholme at the moment though.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 12, 2018 6:34:16 GMT -6
This is a tricky subject for me personally, as I was a large part of the S&W WB creation and this gives me a built-in bias. When I built that rules set I tried to impart certain "sandbox" philosophies and options that fit the old school vibe. Some have cited this as a strength of the rules set, others a weakness. I've only briefly looked at Blueholme since I didn't play Holmes Basic back in the day, but what I have seen is excellent and someday I may buy a set just to have it. Few of the other clones have grabbed me enough to actually buy the product, and if I got free downloads I might skim but not play them, so I don't know much about the true quality of those game lines. The thing is, I never really played WB or any other of the clones because I started with OD&D in '75 and have never really moved away because I've always had the originals. My bookshelf has lots of clone systems on it for inspiration more than for play, and if I was going to coach a new player into the hobby I'd suggest looking at a PDF of the OD&D (or maybe B/X) rules first and maybe pick a clone for readability or convenience of purchase since the original books are so expensive. My son has a friend who has never played an RPG but is interested in learning. What I plan to do is dust off OD&D and get him playing without the stress of learning the rules. Just "wing it" with an adventure on the fly, with simple notecard character sheets and little player prep. I might use OD&D for a dungeon crawl, or maybe a Star Wars or Firefly style adventure since he enjoys those. If he likes the RPG experience we can talk about how he can follow up with 5E or a clone game or something like that. So why OD&D? Well, for the same reason that I started this place. OD&D is fundamentally a simple game but not "Mini 6" simple. It doesn't have the feats and skills of later editions, but I could add them if I want. It doesn't have all of the extra classes in the core rules, but I could add them if I want. Basically, OD&D is a skeleton that I can use quickly and painlessly to run any genre that I like with minimal prep. I'm sure that many of the clones could do the same thing, and perhaps are better written for a newcomer to understand, but I like the nostalgia and the feel of the original role playing game. Just my long-winded two coppers.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 12, 2018 7:13:40 GMT -6
I use the Original. No need for clones.
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Post by geoffrey on May 12, 2018 9:30:35 GMT -6
If I were to use a clone, I would go with Delving Deeper. I like how it brings to the forefront easy-to-miss things that are in the 1974 rules.
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Post by strangebrew on May 12, 2018 9:45:16 GMT -6
My original favorite was S&W White Box. I read it before OD&D, and it introduced me to really stripped-down D&D. Also the lines in the monster descriptions (Elf and Dwarf I think) about not bothering with applying character level rules to monsters (just add whatever things you want and get on with the game) was a paradigm shift for me.
Now Delving Deeper is probably my favorite because it preserves more of the OD&D quirk and setting insinuations. I like how it ties itself to Chainmail, though I don't really care about that in play. More of an intellectual appreciation. Like others, I'm really mostly interested in the original versions of D&D (OD&D, BX, and AD&D 2nd for me). With the release of PDFs, I think the era of straight clones is over. Ones that continue to have unique twists (beyond a handful of house rules) will continue.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 10:16:39 GMT -6
The best retro-RPG out there I think is the DCC RPG; the best straight-out clone that I have read or played is probably "Blueholme", together with Chris Gonnerman's "Basic Fantasy RPG" if that one counts. Keeping it real here, folks: I hear great things about both S&W and DD, but I have - if at all - only briefly checked the related PDFs.
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Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
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Post by Merias on May 12, 2018 21:09:37 GMT -6
Lately I've been playing OD&D, I have the reprints that came out a few years back. But my favorite clone is still S&W White Box - now the 'White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game' version that cleaned up the 3rd and final print of the original. As a framework for your own game, it hit the nail on the proverbial head, and is much more readable than the originals if you're giving it to new players (also they can get a hard copy of the rules at near cost, and the PDF for free).
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Post by scottenkainen on May 12, 2018 21:52:21 GMT -6
Tough question. I'm guessing we shouldn't vote for our own...
Does Sword & Wizardry Complete count? Are we distinguishing between retroclones and neoclones?
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arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 229
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Post by arkansan on May 12, 2018 22:23:29 GMT -6
Tough question. I'm guessing we shouldn't vote for our own... Does Sword & Wizardry Complete count? Are we distinguishing between retroclones and neoclones? Any sort of clone.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 13, 2018 0:59:39 GMT -6
Are we distinguishing between retroclones and neoclones? What's the difference, and... who decides what's what?
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Post by Starbeard on May 13, 2018 10:45:15 GMT -6
I’ve only just skimmed through any of the S&W versions, so I can’t say one way or another about those. I love DD but have never tried using it in play, I’ve only used it to better inform my own ideas about the original books. On the expanded front I have used OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord in play but only as references for the players, each time I was still using my own AD&D and Basic books. Labyrinth Lord in particular I have a love-hate relationship with; it’s got a terrific presentation, but the little things they’ve changed I just really don’t care for.
As a standalone game DCC is astounding. I also really want to get behind the Sine Nomine games like Stars Without Number and Spears of the Dawn, but something tells me that I’ll feel a little too constricted having so much of the author’s own idea of the campaign setting baked into the tables.
By far I’ve gotten the most use out of sourcebooks. The Advanced Edition Companion and Realms of Crawling Chaos, both written for Labyrinth Lord, have been staples at my table for a while now, regardless of edition.
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Post by scottenkainen on May 13, 2018 12:20:22 GMT -6
Are we distinguishing between retroclones and neoclones? What's the difference, and As I understand the terms, a retroclone is trying to recreate the earlier edition as closely as possible, while the neoclone is using the earlier edition as his base and trying to build something new and different out of it. While some might be obvious, there are others where you almost have to ask the authors what their intentions are/were. For instance, I consider Hideouts & Hoodlums, 1st edition, to be a retroclone, but have deviated enough with 2nd edition that this one should be considered a neoclone.
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Post by mjulius on May 13, 2018 18:40:52 GMT -6
Delving Deeper
I was a BX/AD&D kid and I love those games (and their clones) but I’ve grown to appreciate the earliest incarnations of D&D and its pulpy fairytale feel.
S&W Whitebox and Whitebox FMAG are excellent but Delving Deeper really captures that Oe tone of the 70’s, before D&D became saddled with all the assumptions of what D&D would look like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 3:15:06 GMT -6
IN THE INTEREST OF KEEPING IT REAL, I would also like to say, I liked the first (?) edition of Oakes Spalding's "Seven Voyages of Zylarthen" back '11 quite a lot. - Basically, the one thing that sells me on D&D-derivative games of all sorts is whenever you get the flair that what the writers are doing is not, ugh, randomly writing a dumbed-down version of modern games and then labeling it "oldschool", but really put some conceptual design into things. - This, for example, is why I am pretty pumped for a possible annotated version of "Delving Deeper"; because I want to see what the in-detail thinking process was. Like, especially OD&D is positively not a complicated game; you don't have to have extensive context to make it work. - So, for me, at least, the more "meta" a gaming book brings, the better. (This is why I am usually a sucker for whatever Robert Schwalb writes; books *about* a topic interest me more than books *on* a topic. )
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raisin
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 100
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Post by raisin on May 14, 2018 5:39:37 GMT -6
That's a difficult question.
I use an old print of the original game (somewhere between 1st and 4th printing, booklets I printed from PDF I found laying around. I'd use the new WotC ones but I like having Hobbits and Ents in my booklets, and dislike the modern illustrations).
My favorite clones are probably a tie between Delving Deeper (as a tool for understanding the original game's more idiosyncratic-looking bits) and Seven Voyages of Zyrlathen (for its general feel, presentation, and a lot of house rules that appeal to me, although I often end up using the least amount of added crunch possible in my home games).
My favorite type of content for 0E though isn't actually books of rules, but books of setting: Carcosa, Conan, Perilous Realms, Xolthan, etc. are probably amongst my favorite books-to-help-do-RPG-stuff, because they're just crammed full of useable stuff at the table while leaving a lot for the ref to imagine.
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Post by delta on May 14, 2018 6:53:53 GMT -6
Since it was asked, I'll say that I do have actual OD&D books at the table when I'm running a game. My games also have an injection of house rules ( OED), notably a table-less combat mechanic ( Target20). I'd say that the ideal game session is one that I can run entirely from memory, without any book lookups. Several of my wonderful millennial friends/players have recently been inspired to buy the OD&D PDFs based on their experiences.
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Post by geoffrey on May 14, 2018 7:56:18 GMT -6
I am pretty pumped for a possible annotated version of "Delving Deeper"; because I want to see what the in-detail thinking process was. Me too.
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EdOWar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 315
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Post by EdOWar on May 14, 2018 8:36:02 GMT -6
White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game is my favorite clone now, as it adds in the "missing bits" from S&W Whitebox. I love Whitebox because the rules are so streamlined I can easily modify it to my tastes, and I can practically run it on the fly. It also has AAC baked into it, and I'm a big fan of unified saving throws.
DCC gets an honorable mention for being so over-the-top, and doing a great job of embracing it's source material.
I'm not familiar with Delving Deeper, but since many people have mentioned it here I'll have to check it out.
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Post by jakdethe on May 14, 2018 17:39:03 GMT -6
I use a combination of S&W Whitebox with the original rules. I have my DIY repros of them for collecting, but I mainly use a spiral bound copy of all 3 booklets in one. It's also printed at full letter size, so it's extra large print. I mostly use S&W for players who might not completely grok the original rules, and I use the original for myself as Referee, though some players have found it interesting and useful.
I'm not sure if it counts as a retroclone, but I use a lot of Arduin, Palladium, and early Chaosium stuff with it. I only mention them because they were early forks of D&D, that are very much still OD&D-like in rules and theme.
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Post by bestialwarlust on May 16, 2018 15:55:30 GMT -6
Add another vote for Delving Deeper.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 17, 2018 9:52:36 GMT -6
I'm not sure if it counts as a retroclone, but I use a lot of Arduin, Palladium, and early Chaosium stuff with it. I only mention them because they were early forks of D&D, that are very much still OD&D-like in rules and theme. Certainly worth the mention. Those games capture much of the spirit of the early days of role playing, both in philosophy and in style.
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Post by ffilz on May 17, 2018 10:40:34 GMT -6
Does OD&D OCE count as a clone? That's the physical set I have (and the basis for the PDFs which are what I actually reference day to day).
If there was a word document out there (maybe there is) that made a good attempt to have all the original rules (even if it also had some "optional" rules), that would be cool. I could then edit up a complete rule set with my house rules and share it with the players. But not sure how much effort I would want to actually go through to do that...
So, while I have downloaded a few of the free clone offerings, I really have no intent to do much with them other than have them occupy some of my hard drive space.
Frank
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Post by sixdemonbag on May 17, 2018 12:36:45 GMT -6
Delving Deeper is my favorite to read. S&W Whitebox would be my preference to actually run. Both inspired me to purchase the official OD&D PDFs. The various B/X clones never clicked for me compared to the original which is one of the most clear and concise RPGs ever written regardless of genre.
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Post by snorri on May 17, 2018 13:31:17 GMT -6
When I recently started a Wilderlands campaign, I choose Jame's Spahn Whitebox, with a few houserules. I was about to use Castle & Crusades for an AD&D feeling, but changed my mind at the last moment.
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Post by sixdemonbag on May 17, 2018 13:52:19 GMT -6
snorriI'd be remiss not to mention that my own personal houserules veer more towards Searchers of the Unknown than any actual "clone". So basically 3lbb + SotU philosophy + various monsters, spells, and magic items from mostly official sources.
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Post by Mr. Darke on May 17, 2018 14:41:48 GMT -6
S&W Complete...All the others are pale imitations.
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Post by aldarron on May 18, 2018 10:44:10 GMT -6
In terms of the 3 or 4 actual retroclones... ...As I understand the terms, a retroclone is trying to recreate the earlier edition as closely as possible, while the neoclone is using the earlier edition as his base and trying to build something new and different out of it.... mark me as a big fan of Delving Deeper, in part for it's ability to capture the pre module play style the others tend to totally not grok. I would rank DD ahead of the neoclones too, including such "classic" neoclones as B/X. Of course, I regularly play Champions of ZED, but CoZ is neither the clone of a single ruleset or a neoclone attempt to build newness or differentness. CoZ is more along the lines of a strict multisource retro re-edit of 3lbbs, drafts, CHAINMAIL, and as many Gygax/Arneson houserules Etc. as I could pack in.
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darien
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 135
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Post by darien on May 18, 2018 11:02:19 GMT -6
For me, it's a tie between Delving Deeper and Full Metal Plate Mail.
Though I do really want to buy the PDF's of the actual OD&D materials and try them for myself.
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Post by The Wanderer on May 19, 2018 22:36:19 GMT -6
My favorite is Swords & Wizardry WhiteBox. Marv did great work on it. It’s a fantastic framework on which to build your own game. It runs fast and easy which is a huge feature for me.
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Post by Malcadon on May 19, 2018 23:08:31 GMT -6
Humm...?
With rules, I'm not content with one core system; I like to mix things up with differing sub-systems and house-rules. I like snippets from Basic Fantasy, Dungeon Crawl Classic, Labyrinth Lord/Advanced Edition Compendium, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, etc., but seldom the full thing. I know that those are mostly "B/X"-based clones, but that was the rules that I started with, and I always treated AD&D a cumbersome slab of superfluous rules and OD&D as a cluttered mess of incomplete ideas and shoehorn mechanics* that comes with the greatly differing ideals the showrunners had for the fledgling game, so I like to stick with what I know... more-or-less. The one retro-system I feel the most content playing straight out-of-box is Crimson Blades 2 — originally based on Swords & Wizardry, but with a massive overhaul for the second edition — but that is due to the fact that it is the only OSR title that actually handles the sword & sorcery/dark fantasy genre right. I made a thread for CB2 houserules, but after some test-runs, they do not add much. The only real issue I have with it is how magic works: Despite a having really great system for summoning demons, elementals and the undead, it still uses the same old slot-based Vancian spell-casting system. I'm trying to rectify that.
So, put me down for Crimson Blades 2.
*Don't get me wrong, I really like reading the origins of each rule and mechanic, even though most are mundane. e.g. I really like Dave's rule where characters needed to spend their hard-earned GP on self-indulgent pastimes (feasts, orgies, charities, hobbies, etc.) in order get the XP from it — it felt like a mechanic that should have remained in the game.
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