tec97
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 157
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Post by tec97 on Mar 15, 2018 13:12:07 GMT -6
Don't know about the rest of you, but this thread seems to have really gone off the rails.
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 15, 2018 13:12:36 GMT -6
I'll say one last thing on this topic, half tongue-in-cheek, and no more. Those of you who see a grand design behind the given rules, you're just making up s*** you think is fun.
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Post by Piper on Mar 15, 2018 13:20:17 GMT -6
So, maybe we should rename the thread “State of the Disunion”? (the preceding comment was made entirely tongue-in-cheek and in no way a backhanded jab at this forum or anyone on it)
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 15, 2018 13:40:16 GMT -6
I also understand the annoyance of those here who resent being told that their analysis of the logic of the game (and why it should have come about that way) is mere pedantry simply because it was not a conscious design. Except no one is telling anyone that. I've said many times: Analysis? Fine! Good! Fun! Knock yourself out! I'll do it too! Learn the origins and reasons for given decisions? Interesting! Tell me more! But denying the repeated insistence of the creators that it was a ground-up design instead of a top-down design? Foolishness! Analysis of the game is not pedantry—or if it is, I'm guilty of it too—and no one is complaining of anyone being pedantic. The problem is basing the analysis on the false assumption that because there must be a greater design behind it all, we can stretch anything we find in the text to fit that perceived greater design. Starting with a false assumption, you reach false conclusions. Except that Gronan just literally did exactly what you’re saying nobody does in the thread about “Oriental” elements in D&D a couple of days ago.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 15, 2018 13:45:39 GMT -6
I’m so confused.
Do we enjoy playing D&D or not? Whether it’s 5E or OD&D, we are all just making sh!t up with our friends (presumably) while pretending to be a different person in a fantasy world.
Complexity, tastes, and origins vary.
Trying to apply any kind of “objectivity” to any of this seems foolhardy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 15:04:21 GMT -6
Except that Gronan just literally did exactly what you’re saying nobody does in the thread about “Oriental” elements in D&D a couple of days ago. No. Not even close. The thread is "what SHOULD they try to do." The only answer to SHOULD is "whatever you want." If you want to talk about "what CAN they try to do," you will get an entirely different set of responses. Words mean things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 15:08:36 GMT -6
Or to use the example from the "Jousting" thread:
There seem to be some options that there's no reason to pick. That is, there are options X and Y such that, regardless of what your opponent chooses, you'll always do as well or better with X than with Y.
Aiming Points DC and DF seem to be inferior to CP--and CP allows a wider range of stances.
Similarly, Defensive Position 4 ('Steady Seat') seems to be superior to Position 5 ('Shield High').
This is true. But there is no PROBLEM there; Gary based this off actual jousting, and yeah, some things are better than others.
If somebody said "all choices SHOULD be equally good" I'd have laughed at them publicly for promulgating a foolish idea.
If you want a good discussion, ask good questions.
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 15, 2018 16:50:56 GMT -6
I also understand the annoyance of those here who resent being told that their analysis of the logic of the game (and why it should have come about that way) is mere pedantry simply because it was not a conscious design. Except no one is telling anyone that. I've said many times: Analysis? Fine! Good! Fun! Knock yourself out! I'll do it too! Learn the origins and reasons for given decisions? Interesting! Tell me more! But denying the repeated insistence of the creators that it was a ground-up design instead of a top-down design? Foolishness! Analysis of the game is not pedantry—or if it is, I'm guilty of it too—and no one is complaining of anyone being pedantic. The problem is basing the analysis on the false assumption that because there must be a greater design behind it all, we can stretch anything we find in the text to fit that perceived greater design. Starting with a false assumption, you reach false conclusions. "No one is complaining of anyone being pedantic." Actually, as foster1941 previously noted, the entire thing began with precisely that: People WAY overthink this. Back in the day, our motto was "make up some s*** you think will be fun." Pedantry kills fun. It was in a thread I started called Oriental/Japanese Play-Aids: What Should They Try to Do? A number of people were discussing TSR's Oriental Adventures and some other medieval Japanese games and settings, talking about what they liked about them and didn't, what worked, what didn't and why and so on. I found it useful and learned a few things (that I might learn a few things was why I started it). I also thought it was fun. gronan decided to come out of nowhere and dump on it. I'm not accusing gronan of intentionally wanting to spoil people's fun, but it was annoying nevertheless. I responded to it (without mentioning his name) on this thread as part of a more general rant because I've heard the same sort of thing before from people (including gronan) and I wanted to knock it down. gronan took offense, called me a name, and things went uphill and downhill from there. As I have said, "we just made stuff up" is a truism that also contains a lot of meaningful truth. But having people walk into conversations and fling it at you, just to play the grumpiness card or the "I was there" card or whatever is silly and boring. But to go back to the original thread, I think Oriental Adventures was one of the oddest products ever to have been released by Gygax era TSR. The irony is that if it failed, it failed in part because it seems to have been overthought and perhaps underplaytested. It could have used less of "for the first time ever, we are going to give you the exotic and authentic orient" (even though it didn't really) and more "here's a ninja" (referee pulls out a plastic figure) "you're dead."
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 15, 2018 17:12:28 GMT -6
If you reeeeeally want me to continue to argue the point, I will. But I offered to stop.
I was referring to the pedantry of analyzing how the rules work. In that thread, Gronan was referring to the pedantry of second-guessing what the writers SHOULD have done and what their intentions were in doing what they did. These are miles apart.
Whether you think Gronan was rude or not, he was not telling anyone to stop analyzing the rules.
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Post by derv on Mar 15, 2018 17:15:40 GMT -6
An elephant is soft and mushy.
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Post by peterlind on Mar 15, 2018 17:35:13 GMT -6
Just a thought . . . some of the other gaming forums I have seen have "site notices" or "rules and guidelines" that are posted prominently on their sites. Have you considered putting up some rules and guidelines regarding code of conduct, civility, statement as to how one may become a forum member, when an account may be expected to be deleted, etc.?
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 15, 2018 17:40:16 GMT -6
If you reeeeeally want me to continue to argue the point, I will. But I offered to stop. I was referring to the pedantry of analyzing how the rules work. In that thread, Gronan was referring to the pedantry of second-guessing what the writers SHOULD have done and what their intentions were in doing what they did. These are miles apart. Whether you think Gronan was rude or not, he was not telling anyone to stop analyzing the rules. The should/could thing that you and gronan seem now to be pushing wasn't there in gronan's original drive-by grump at all. That should be obvious to anyone. But just to make you happy, I'll make the point again in a more explicitly "pedantic" (as you now define the term) way. Most people agree that Oriental Adventures was sort of a bungle, but many of those same people also seem to have a fair amount of affection for it. I'm one of them. It's completely natural for one to talk about what the designer(s) should have done to have made it a better product. Granted, instead of "should" one can be slightly softer and use the word "could." Teachers, managers and parents all employ both words depending on the context and the tone-level they want to use You can say, "you should clean up your own messes" or you can say "what you could think about is cleaning up your own messes." Or whatever. But to scream that there's some huge metaphysical difference between the two, because using the word "should" (as opposed to "could) makes you some evil, second-guessing, "I'm always right and you're not" fascist objectivist or whatever, really is pedantic.
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Post by derv on Mar 15, 2018 17:54:24 GMT -6
Just a thought . . . some of the other gaming forums I have seen have "site notices" or "rules and guidelines" that are posted prominently on their sites. Have you considered putting up some rules and guidelines regarding code of conduct, civility, statement as to how one may become a forum member, when an account may be expected to be deleted, etc.? They are found in the Announcements. OD&D74 rules & guidelines
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Post by peterlind on Mar 15, 2018 18:06:08 GMT -6
Thanks for pointing that out (to my embarrassment . . . ). Perhaps these could be expanded on and displayed a bit more prominently . . .?
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 15, 2018 21:37:46 GMT -6
I only play Holmes, and I'm angry that I don't have my own PDF, and that there was never anything official for me beyond level 3. "I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out, and yell, ‘I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!" #RELEASETHEPDF
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Post by hamurai on Mar 15, 2018 23:50:24 GMT -6
Maybe it's time to split this part of the thread from the earlier one? - You tell me, gentlemen. I vote for it. While the ongoing discussion/argument is, in parts, still interesting, we've strayed far enough and long enough from the original topic to make this a thread on its own.
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Post by dizzysaxophone on Mar 16, 2018 5:36:20 GMT -6
Wow! I must have been missing longer than I thought. I completely missed everything that happened I guess. Fin, I just want you to know that your board has long been the most friendly and civil that I've been through. Sure there is always a couple of people that will irk others, but for the most part I've always loved this board. You've done a find job, and to me, you have always been a really upstanding guy. I know I've contacted you multiple times about people wanting to join, either from G+ or my own board at osrgaming and you have always been extremely helpful.
This thread in my mind has gone way off, and has really turned into a bit of an uglier conversation. I can see all sides of the argument, but I am definitely seeing sides to some of you I haven't really seen before.
TPD, that whole thing caught me super off guard. I was always a bit unnerved that he created his own forum, that just seemed like a blatant copy of this, but I would participate some. So sorry to hear about everything that went down. I want to try to be more active again around here! You guys are all great!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 9:24:06 GMT -6
I vote for it. While the ongoing discussion/argument is, in parts, still interesting, we've strayed far enough and long enough from the original topic to make this a thread on its own. Seeing how this thread has exploded over night, after careful consideration, I am going to let Fin place the scalpel. TPD, that whole thing caught me super off guard. I was always a bit unnerved that he created his own forum, that just seemed like a blatant copy of this, but I would participate some. So sorry to hear about everything that went down. I want to try to be more active again around here! You guys are all great! I can only repeat what I've posted earlier these days: This was a remarkably saddening and increasingly perverse journey into the human condition. At this point I can tell you that the entire mod staff here is literally praying that "Dave" just turns out to be an immensely over-motivated Rabid Puppy, as we have long suspected. Because if turned out that he wasn't, well - bad for him. Now, as you can perhaps imagine already, it was me who coordinated the hunt for "Dave", an operation that, all in all, took probably 18 months - if not longer, even with the obvious Llauranella connection. It was important to expose him in a careful and a secure way, precisely because it quickly became clear that this was a matter of relevance for the entire oldschool community, not just for us happy little few here. ...And this, ladies and gentlemen, is also why, in accordance with Fin and the rest of team, I am going to take an extended break from OD&D'74 for some time. - Don't rejoice, trolls, I'll likely keep my banhammer! In all seriousness, though, this whole affair has left me pretty burned out: I have been a community organizer (for lack of a better term) in the oldschool community for around thirteen years by now, and this was by far the darkest, saddest, and most disgusting issue I've ever had to deal with - and that includes a lot of things that were pretty bad already. This is simply not what I want my involvement with the community to be about, and it would always come back to it if I stayed now. Debate D&D, yes. Plot weird stories, yes. Go after not a very nice persons, no. "Doxing" someone is "toxicant", if you allow me this thesaurus-based wordplay. If not for the friendship that Fin and I have formed over the years, I guess you all will sense that I'd been perfectly happy to leave the doubtful honor of exposing "Dave" to virtually anyone else. - Anyone. The car park valet at GaryCon. The jackass who wrote the script for "The Last Jedi". Dave Arneson's ceramic bullfrog statue. Anyone. So, until I have leveled up my inner Dwarven bard, reread "The Wheel of Time" twice, or, aaaaaaaaah, finally figure out how surprise works in OD&D, don't expect me to be back. In the meantime, don't break anything, or I will cut you. - Rafe, out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 9:30:24 GMT -6
Eight months I have waited for a thread to lock, just so I could post this video again! Doesn't really make sense in the context, but I kind of like the tune...
Anyway, see you around, folks!
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Post by Piper on Mar 16, 2018 9:35:22 GMT -6
...And this, ladies and gentlemen, is also why, in accordance with Fin and the rest of team, I am going to take an extended break from OD&D'74 for some time. - Don't rejoice, trolls, I'll likely keep my banhammer! I must say, in all honesty, I’m going to miss your presence on ODD74. [olde West accent] You rode in and really cleaned up this town.[/accent] You may have made a lot of enemies, but it also gained you a lot of respect from those of us of trying to make this into a home on the web. Kudos to you, Finn, and the rest of the admin team. If we ever get exalts back, I’m going to give you one!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 9:47:29 GMT -6
Thank you, Pip! B-but how can you post this? The whole point of me posting the Castamere video was that the thread got locked! *Rages.* Fiiiin! The engine is broken, yet again...
Seriously, though, brother: Keep your good spirits, and don't let the trolls spoil your fun!
- R
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