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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 6, 2018 23:46:11 GMT -6
Llauranela. Ugh. Ok, so this all makes much more sense. I've had my own unfortunate run-ins with "Llauranela" on other boards. I'm a glutton for punishment and I enjoy a good challenge so that's all on me. At least I now know what all the hullabaloo is about.
And FTR, I love this place and I find any debate here to be overall courteous and respectful. Opinions differ, but I've yet to see things ever become personal or vindictive. Without this board, my knowledge and understanding of OD&D would basically be nil.
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 7, 2018 0:35:39 GMT -6
Actually, Rafael, I made none of the claims that you insinuate I made. I don't believe anyone here was purged for ideological or personal reasons, and I said or implied as much in my previous posts. For now I'll leave it at that.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Mar 7, 2018 19:25:16 GMT -6
I'm all for out in the open, civil discussion about any challenges the forum faces, but if there are personal issues with moderation I'd suggest they be handled privately.
One of the reasons trolls exist is to hurt other people. Turning on each other is exactly the kind of result wished for. I'd like to think we don't all have to be friends, but we can get along with each other. Let's not stop this now, just because of ...*blech*.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 7:11:50 GMT -6
For now I'll leave it at that. Thank you. I appreciate that, as presumably do many gently stoned hobbits. Llauranela. Ugh. Ok, so this all makes much more sense. Please understand that none of us - neither Fin, nor the mod team - can really comment on this issue, in particular, as - trying my best Kojak voice, here - it's part of an investigation that is still ongoing. Basically, things boil down to Fin running the only OD&D-focused message board of note, and some stupid and lazy people being jealous and trying to get what he has without putting the same effort into things. - The same way the K&K Alehouse became their target once it developed buzz through OSRIC, or the same way they (earlier than K&K?) they targeted places like Canonfire and DF before, when they became a thing. I think I have explained on another occasion what "industry trolls" are, and why you need to be made aware what you're often dealing with: Because, while they usually end up as the community's laughing stock, they do a whole lot to frame the general debate. To name one of the more recent examples, did you ever notice how there was some time when Jon Peterson's threads here and on other boards where systemically sabotaged by what seemed to be random people getting upset about him "being too liberal", mostly? - Well, this all shines in a different light once it turns out that this was just ONE guy, all the time, who was trying to backdoor-promote his own project on RPG history. And his own oh-so-superior history of RPGs never got anywhere, he certainly achieved that the community in general turned to regard certain topics as problematic and as to avoid. Consequently, what we're asking you all is that you keep your eyes open for things like that, and don't let anyone fool you with some bullnuts narratives. OD&D'74 is pretty "safe", right now - but other communities might not be. The rule of thumb being here that there is no such thing as "righteous bullying"; that's usually how you spot those "industry trolls". I'd like to think we don't all have to be friends, but we can get along with each other. Let's not stop this now, just because of ...*blech*. Precisely. But we also don't have to be friends just to not be dishonest a-holes with each other. There is a space between those two extremes, and that is the realization that we're all on the same team.  |
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Post by aldarron on Mar 8, 2018 7:40:20 GMT -6
I think that politics should not have any place in posts on these boards. No matter what the politician or the issue, lots of old-school gamers support that politician or issue; and lots of old-school gamers oppose that politician or issue. It is obviously not the case that old-school gamers are in agreement on ANY politician or issue. There are a few major exceptions... NO THERE ARE NOT. This is not a place to debate the rightness or wrongness of people's opinions and beliefs about products which feature magic, demons, gods and or what-have-you. This is not a place to debate legal issues. This is not a place to debate religious history or the rightness or wrongness of any cosmology. This is not a place for any kind of "justice" agenda from any point of view, this is a place to discuss the play of a game. There are plenty of other places for all that other crap. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 8:25:35 GMT -6
No offense, but I think you're missing the point here, my friend: Krus is merely saying that we need to discuss things within their real environment. As in, "nobody should every be afraid to ask a question", which is a problem that you'll have when you forbid things in a generalizing fashion. Now, the trick is, it's about the right measure, and it's really a case-by-case thing: The key here is if it is something that not just concerns the community, but also that the community can productively discuss. Like the PDF copyright question last year. There is, of course, a line that must be drawn: In harsh contrast, my personal opinion is that copyright should only protect an author's claims during his lifetime, and 25 years beyond that. Now, it's not going to help anyone here if I spend my days raging about how I feel blindsided by REH's estate for not allowing me to produce that King Kull musical comedy that I had always wanted to do. There are indeed other places to do that. So, the key is to really be a *thinking* community member when one brings up a topic, which I think can be expected from everyone in our community here: For example, medieval Christianity is a fascinating topic that might be interesting to many gamers on a purely game-related base. Again, you can draw a line here - it usually comes when the discussion might switch from "how many goblins fit into an erdstall" to posting random quotes by Sam Harris. In any case, please don't get too hung up on this topic, gentlemen. Nobody has tried to discuss politics here. Let's not forget that this came up because I factually reported that we had to ban a few nazis. Since the term "nazi" is usually used in an inflationary way, I contrasted this with other political groups that it is sometimes unjustly used to describe. That is all. Sorry if I triggered anyone. ...The only comment you will ever hear from me on US politics is that I found out a few years ago that both the Democrats and the Republicans apparently make not-so-little money selling actual COLORING BOOKS FOR ADULTS. In a more quiet moment, please, somebody, explain this to me. Or, better, lie to me about it, because I have this notion that the truth behind all this will have me flee from the light. |
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Post by makofan on Mar 8, 2018 9:11:34 GMT -6
Hey, I have a Wonder Woman coloring book!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 11:14:30 GMT -6
Yeah, Wonder Woman! But not - Dick Cheney!  |
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 8, 2018 11:43:04 GMT -6
I used to think "Adult Coloring Books" were x-rated coloring books. It shows you where my mind is.
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Post by murquhart72 on Mar 8, 2018 13:10:30 GMT -6
Llauranela. Ugh. Ok, so this all makes much more sense. I've had my own unfortunate run-ins with "Llauranela" on other boards. I'm a glutton for punishment and I enjoy a good challenge so that's all on me. At least I now know what all the hullabaloo is about. And FTR, I love this place and I find any debate here to be overall courteous and respectful. Opinions differ, but I've yet to see things ever become personal or vindictive. Without this board, my knowledge and understanding of OD&D would basically be nil. I have only the vaguest memory/sense of Llaurenela, other than some very entertaining posts that kept me glued to the edge of my seat. Sometimes drama is fun to watch. Just not if it's really disrupting the real reason we all come here. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 8, 2018 13:58:37 GMT -6
Llauranela. Ugh. Ok, so this all makes much more sense. I've had my own unfortunate run-ins with "Llauranela" on other boards. I'm a glutton for punishment and I enjoy a good challenge so that's all on me. At least I now know what all the hullabaloo is about. And FTR, I love this place and I find any debate here to be overall courteous and respectful. Opinions differ, but I've yet to see things ever become personal or vindictive. Without this board, my knowledge and understanding of OD&D would basically be nil. I have only the vaguest memory/sense of Llaurenela, other than some very entertaining posts that kept me glued to the edge of my seat. Sometimes drama is fun to watch. Just not if it's really disrupting the real reason we all come here. I wasn't around back then to experience those, only the more recent reincarnations and never here, luckily. I share your response and I never take anything said online personal. This is true whether political, religious, RPG-related, or otherwise. I personally find discussions about politics and religion mostly boring aside from some academic, historical interests. |
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Post by Falconer on Mar 8, 2018 22:50:34 GMT -6
I have only the vaguest memory/sense of Llaurenela ‘The Perilous Dreamer’ or ‘crimhthanthegreat’ might also right a bell. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 3:29:42 GMT -6
...I am going to post a video of a similarly shocking revelation to distract y'all.
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Post by derv on Mar 9, 2018 6:22:04 GMT -6
I questioned the idea of a conspiracy in the other thread that lead up to this and was content not participating in this conversation. Who knows, weird stuff. But, once again I'm being side-swiped with a comment. ‘The Perilous Dreamer’ or ‘crimhthanthegreat’ might also ring a bell. WTH? Am I getting the gist of this comment? PD = some other pseudonym discontent? I'm not seeing it. As far as I'm concerned, PD's always been a gentleman and a contributor on here. |
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 9, 2018 6:53:30 GMT -6
I questioned the idea of a conspiracy in the other thread that lead up to this and was content not participating in this conversation. Who knows, weird stuff. But, once again I'm being side-swiped with a comment. ‘The Perilous Dreamer’ or ‘crimhthanthegreat’ might also ring a bell. WTH? Am I getting the gist of this comment? PD = some other pseudonym discontent? I'm not seeing it. As far as I'm concerned, PD's always been a gentleman and a contributor on here. I second that for Perilous Dreamer, unreservedly. And as we know, he also runs the other great OD&D board called The Ruins of Murkhill, which many of us are also members of. Crimhthan the Great wrote an unsolicited kind and lengthy review of my Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, which he posted at the RPGsite and The Ruins of Murkhill. He was involved in some dustup at Knights & Knaves Alehouse, which, as I understand it, bled over into this board. I don't know if it was ideologically-based in the political sense, but it did get very nasty. But he also, in my public and private interactions with him, has been nothing but a gentleman and a learned contributor. My impression is that he was the victim of a mob pile-on, though I didn't observe the kerfuffle first hand. I have no idea who Llaurenella is (Rafael compared me with him/her). But if she/he has anything to do with Perilous or Crimhthan, I'll take it as a compliment. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 8:17:38 GMT -6
Hehe, what do now? - We had not planned to bring this to the table just yet. Now, TPD=L is far from a secret, and everybody who has been even just marginally involved with community organization in our corner of the web knows about it. This is why you won't find TPD - or any of his other aliases - in most other oldschool communities. He's simply banned from them, mostly quasi by default. Google will help you with the details; even with what it's out there, you should be able to get an idea.
Short version is this: Fin is, without a doubt, one of the friendliest guys in the entire oldschool community, because he gave one of the worst trolls in the history of the oldschool community - perhaps THE worst troll - a legit chance to contribute positively to our common cause.
Short version is also: Yes, there has been what can be rightfully called a conspiracy against Fin, and against this community. I will leave it to Fin to eventually elaborate on this, and on TPD's role in it.
Communities like ours here, in the last ten to fifteen years, have fundamentally changed from meetups to fairly potent markets. if you don't believe me, look at the average numbers oldschool-related crowdfunding campaigns tend to pull, just as one example. So, market control is far more aggressively contested than just a few years ago, and people aren't pulling any punches, any more, because this is not precisely about beer money, any more. - Equally, the standing of those who controls the communities - the markets that net hundreds of thousands of bucks to the content producers each year - has changed in a fundamental fashion; and so, the pressure, and the "court intrigues" have augmented, as well.
This is why we have to act now, or the next decade, when D&D's 50th birthday is likely to be a recurring topic even in non-scene media, and every fool with a pen decides he's going to cash in on the wave of nostalgia, is going to be hell. |
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Post by Piper on Mar 9, 2018 8:53:12 GMT -6
Now, TPD=L is far from a secret I must confess I was unaware of any connection, as well. Like Oakes, I must admit even though I now know about said connection I have trouble seeing it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 9:19:27 GMT -6
I must confess I was unaware of any connection, as well. Like Oakes, I must admit even though I now know about said connection I have trouble seeing it. See, this is why nobody has wanted to speak up about this, for some time. - Because there is a tendency to shoot the messenger. Also, as long as things are alright, why give anybody crap about things that have happened in the past? - "Dave", if that is his real name, came here under a new identity, at least in the beginning, seemed to play along well. So, no reason to be spiteful, and to rob him of his "reboot".
However, particularly over the last year, a number of events happened that made Fin rethink his general strategy of being generous with people; this is why we reformed the security measures we apply here, and this is why we ourselves aren't pulling any punches any more. The bottom line is that we are not willing to spend some time on this sort of drama if there are shorter ways to solve things. We have prepared this over the last six or seven months, and, in the words of Professor X, with whom I sympathize because we have the same hair stylist, "I feel a great swell of pity for the poor soul who comes here looking for trouble".
- Especially if "doxing" somebody can have as brutal consequences as it might in this case. Like, there is this "health update" thread over at Murkhill. How do you feel assessing whether the whole story might well simply be bullnuts - simply because it's what trolls tend to do?
It's a terribly saddening thing to have to deal with, both as a "suspect", as well as a admin/moderator/investigator. This is not why I come here. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 9, 2018 9:46:09 GMT -6
I have only the vaguest memory/sense of Llaurenela ‘The Perilous Dreamer’ or ‘crimhthanthegreat’ might also right a bell. To name only but a few...Morgan, etc... It's never bothered me at all, and I post at TRoM sometimes, being fully aware of the unique situation over there. And honestly, only once has it ever been so obvious that I was forced to point it out to the community. I wasn't crazy about an Admin of a forum using such an immature tactic, but to each his own. I didn't know about the industry aspects, however, and that's very sad to hear. |
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Post by Piper on Mar 9, 2018 9:52:39 GMT -6
See, this is why nobody has wanted to speak up about this, for some time. - Because there is a tendency to shoot the messenger. My post was merely an observation and in no way intended as a slight against you or any other forum member. I humbly apologize for any offense given. |
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Post by Piper on Mar 9, 2018 10:09:19 GMT -6
In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably let all of you know the following. I am a Global Moderator over on the Murkhill forums. I regard The Perilous Dreamer as a friend and colleague. So, as much as I'm trying to be an impartial observer of this thread? This may still color my perceptions. I thought persons reading this thread should be made aware of that connection. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 10:58:20 GMT -6
I humbly apologize for any offense given. Wasn't directed at you, so no worries. The point is more general - nobody wants to accuse another person of being a compulsive liar. Though I came pretty close to do so when someone on Murkhill suggested collecting money for TPD's health situation. That's when shirt like this suddenly becomes deadly serious. In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably let all of you know the following. I am a Global Moderator over on the Murkhill forums. I regard The Perilous Dreamer as a friend and colleague. So, as much as I'm trying to be an impartial observer of this thread? This may still color my perceptions. I though persons reading this thread should be made aware of that connection. I know, and I appreciate you pointing this out. - Just so you know that nobody is talking out of his butt here, if you like, go to: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/members?view=ip&type=user&id=1As a moderator/admin, you should have access to this page. I am not saying, "make a screenshot and post it here", but I am saying, get an idea of how weird things are. I didn't know about the industry aspects, however, and that's very sad to hear. That's the key here. It doesn't do much for a lot of online drama, but it has pretty bad consequences; to name an example that is close to our community here, those of you who know Carcosa, go and check some of the reviews Geoffrey has been getting for his work: If you relied on those alone, you would not come near his books. - Trolling doesn't have to *stop*, or to inhibit people; it's sufficient if it just hurts enough to sabotage. |
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Post by robertsconley on Mar 9, 2018 14:44:40 GMT -6
Now, TPD=L is far from a secret I must confess I was unaware of any connection, as well. Like Oakes, I must admit even though I now know about said connection I have trouble seeing it. I am a moderator over on TheRPGSite and at we point the staff and I noticed there is a high correlation of IP addresses between PD and Crimthan. When it was pointed out that the staff was watching in case there was sock puppetry going on both stopped posting quickly afterwards. As folks know things can get pretty heated and while that not grounds for banning on the RPGSite, warning not threadjack (or more commonly initiate a new discussion) can lead to a ban. Personally given the amount of time I been interacting with PD over on Murkhill, I don't get what going on. I see the problem but I just can't fathom why the individual is doing this. Usually when this occurs the individual just has issues period, but this one all over the map. And Rafe, Fin, and the other OD&D moderators, appreciate what you guys are doing here and think this board is very much needed in the OSR community. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 9, 2018 15:31:32 GMT -6
I appreciate your feedback, Rob. You're one of the classy guys on many boards where I visit, and I'm glad you post here.
I hate banning folks, but it's possible that my moderation team and I will come up with a policy where we only allow "one account per human" and violators may get dropped from the membership list. Funny how the haters may force us to do exactly what they accuse us of doing, which is to develop an agenda. I just know that when I read some of the stuff in threads like this, I just feel depressed. Games should be fun and talking about games should be fun but when folks get mad at each other and spew hatred, well that's just not fun.
I'll confess I don't understand why a person would maintain multiple accounts on a board -- I think I'm "finarvyn" on every board where I post (with maybe the exception of the Ad Astra boards where I had to post under my real name) and have even started putting Marv/Finarvyn in many of my signatures -- because I see an online persona as a reflection of me. I try to type things that I would say to a person's face, I try to be polite and constructive rather than destructive, and I like to think that my posts add value to a given discussion. Making up multiple accounts just to have automatic "yes men" to everything I say just seems sort of slimy and underhanded, and I don't think I could do that to others.
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Post by derv on Mar 9, 2018 15:55:31 GMT -6
I guess I sympathize with the mod team. I still don't fully understand the agenda being talked about or the point of having multiple accounts and how that fits into a conspiracy. Overall, I'm a bit weirded out by all this.
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Post by Piper on Mar 9, 2018 15:56:05 GMT -6
I think I'm "finarvyn" on every board where I post (with maybe the exception of the Ad Astra boards where I had to post under my real name) and have even started putting Marv/Finarvyn in many of my signatures -- because I see an online persona as a reflection of me. Agreed. I've done the same, of late. At least I have at the boards I frequent. When I was at a convention last year I had both Piper and DuBeers on my name tag, too. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 9, 2018 16:13:01 GMT -6
I keep writing replies to this, and then I keep deleting them. The sock puppets are bizarre, but I've had experience with them that makes me think I see a little of what's going on, even if I don't have the moderators' information. If I'm right, then it's just a very sad situation all around.
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 9, 2018 22:35:48 GMT -6
Deleted by me (Oakes)
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 10, 2018 8:11:12 GMT -6
I guess I sympathize with the mod team. I still don't fully understand the agenda being talked about or the point of having multiple accounts and how that fits into a conspiracy. Overall, I'm a bit weirded out by all this. I gotta say that I'm on the "inside" of a lot of moderator discussions on this topic and I don't feel like I fully understand it, either.  The thing for me is this: (1) I like OD&D and like to talk about OD&D. (2) This is usually a fun place to talk about OD&D. (3) Somebody likes to come here and crap on my lawn, and it may be repeated craps by the same somebody. (4) When this place is full of drama, I get to where I don't want to come back here. (5) If it turns out to be a small handful of people repeatedly causing drama, they may have to go. What I want is a place where we can talk about OD&D without every thread turning into a crapfest. There are some boards out there where folks seem to pride themselves in being snarky, insulting each other's game choices, and so on. I don't want that here. In my mind, this place is sort of like my living room and you are all good friends invited to sit on my couch and talk gaming while we eat snacks. I just don't know why anyone would want to crap on that. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2018 10:17:17 GMT -6
I think it's generally Fin's thing to address this matter, especially now that the cat is out of the bag. - However, I'd like to add a few things for contextual purposes:
First, the agenda of TPD and his strawmen/sock puppets/whatever seems to have been pretty clear: To either drive Fin out of OD&D'74, and to substitute him with one of TPD's pawns - or to make him close the site down altogether, so Murkhill could fill that void. About what motivated this agenda, I could only speculate, so I won't. I can only report, after years of observation, that it seems to me like TPD's actions mostly followed a methodical pattern.
Second, the question why we treated this so carefully is certainly legit: Our "excuse" if you will, is that we were quite overwhelmed with what we found. Not that he had other aliases, but that he had this methodical pattern. - You know, you second-guess yourself in such situations. You hope it's just a big misunderstanding. Stuff like that. And you tread softly, even if the incidents don't stop.
Third, and I think this is a point that we should not forget to make: The community is stronger than the trolls. The amount of support we have received since this became a serious issue has been overwhelming, by members of this site, and from everywhere else in the oldschool scene. So, while we might be happy to even cultivate smaller differences, we work as one when it comes to facing the big stuff. Without sounding all too pathetic, this leaves me hopeful that those who are taking such great efforts in dividing us will not succeed. Not now, not ever.
We're gamers, guys, for better or worse. Profoundly friendly people that have a bit too much fun with petty and trivial things. But we are not petty and trivial, and we don't allow others to turn us into people who are. - So, let's start talking about D&D again, and let's make this crazy world a better place like that, in our own way. |
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