I think I figured out surprise!

[graelth]

This came up while pouring over Underworld & Wilderness Adventures for my other post about evasion and pursuit. There has always been a confusing detail about surprise in U&WA...

Surprise: A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware of the presence of the other. Such things as ESP’ing, light, and noise will negate surprise. If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised. Distance is then 10–30 feet.

Surprise gives the advantage of a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat. If monsters gain surprise they will either close the distance between themselves and the character(s) (unless they are intelligent and their prey is obviously too strong to attack) or attack. For example a Wyvern surprises a party of four characters when they round a corner into a large open area. It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet. The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the Wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again before the adventurers strike back.

Why does that Wyvern get to attack, again? I have heard many competing theories about this, from surprise granting "automatic first initiative in the subsequent normal round of combat" to the argument that the die roll for surprise and for surprise distance are the same roll. Merias has even opined that surprise grants a monster two free actions.

But, I think I've figured it out after all... in my own opinion, of course! While studying for the aforementioned post about evasion, I read this line again on page 17...

Surprise: This is the same as in the underworld, except that the distance is from 10– 30 yards, and if there are three or more monsters involved they will have moved into a circle around the adventurers. Monsters at 10 yards distance will be able to attack.

Well, I've read that line dozens of times before and I always assumed that monsters can attack at 10 yards in the wilderness because this is the same distance as 30 feet, and the range for melee is 3" according to Chainmail. But then I realized... Chainmail doesn't use feet, it uses yards... 3" engagement range is 30 yards in the over world. Thus, this last line is not a reference to simply reiterate Chainmail melee range. Something special happens with surprise at 1/3rd melee range, or 1 scale inch. Additionally, this same passage informs us that wilderness surprise is "the same as in the underworld". So what is happening with underworld surprise...

Then I looked around a little more and noticed this on page 12....

Avoiding Monsters: Monsters will automatically attack and/or pursue any characters they “see,” with the exception of those monsters which are intelligent enough to avoid an obviously superior force. There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 20 feet, unless the monster itself has been surprised.

Ok, something special is happening with surprise at 2 scale inches as well... monsters cannot be avoided at all. The wilderness rules stipulate moreover that a surprise combat even at 3 scale inches cannot be escaped if the monsters have the opportunity to encircle the players. Presumably these rules are the same, with the dungeon rule representing the opportunity for monsters to block off chokepoints like doorways by interposing themselves between the players and their route of escape, and the wilderness rule representing the monsters encircling the players.

Now, this infamous passage on page 9 is starting to make a LOT more sense... Let's read it again:

Surprise: A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware of the presence of the other. Such things as ESP’ing, light, and noise will negate surprise. If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised. Distance is then 10–30 feet.

Surprise gives the advantage of a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat. If monsters gain surprise they will either close the distance between themselves and the character(s) (unless they are intelligent and their prey is obviously too strong to attack) or attack. For example a Wyvern surprises a party of four characters when they round a corner into a large open area. It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet. The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the Wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again before the adventurers strike back.

So what do we have here?

Surprise grants:
• Automatically: A free round of combat ("a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat") and enemy cannot evade.
• A free attack on top of that, if the monster is within 1"
• The impossibility of escape if the monster is within 2" (in the dungeon)
• The impossibility of escape if the monster is within 3" (in the wilderness)

Thus, you roll for surprise (2 in 6 chance, normally), then the distance roll indicates how much the monsters are able to do within the time it takes for the party to react. This is, quite simply and logically, a factor of distance. If surprise lasts something like 30 seconds, then a short sprint across 10 feet gives you more than enough time to attack and do something else (like attack again!) before combat begins. If you have to travel 20 feet, you still get to do one free action, and moreover you have enough time to maneuver so the enemy cannot simply turn tail and run (by blocking off exits, etc.). If you have to travel 30 feet, then it is simply normal surprise and you just get your free action.

This makes perfect sense to me. Travelling any distance takes a certain amount of time... the less distance you need to travel, the more you can spend your time on other things. So that infamous passage on page 9 should be interpreted...

"The Wyvern attacks as it is within automatic striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating the distance was but 10 feet (roll a d6 and divide the result by 2, as you would determine a d3). The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the Wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again (or do any other action) before the adventurers strike back, because it gets a free combat round."

[aldarron]

Well....

Jan 24, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6 graelth said:

While studying for the aforementioned post about evasion, I read this line again on page 17...

Surprise: This is the same as in the underworld, except that the distance is from 10– 30 yards, and if there are three or more monsters involved they will have moved into a circle around the adventurers. Monsters at 10 yards distance will be able to attack.

Well, I've read that line dozens of times before and I always assumed that monsters can attack at 10 yards in the wilderness because this is the same distance as 30 feet, and the range for melee is 3" according to Chainmail. But then I realized... Chainmail doesn't use feet, it uses yards... 3" engagement range is 30 yards in the over world. Thus, this last line is not a reference to simply reiterate Chainmail melee range. Something special happens with surprise at 1/3rd melee range, or 1 scale inch.

I think - if I read your assumption correctly - that you are confused about the 10 yards/30 feet relationship. It's really a simple scale shift. Here is the rule:

"In the underworld all distances are in feet, so wherever distances are given in inches convert them to tens of feet." (U&WA 8) Thus 1 wilderness yard = 1 dungeon foot.

Surprise distance is always 1"-3", it just shifts from yards outdoors to feet underground.

For the sake of clarity, if you are wondering why 1" is specified, the 1" distance merely indicates the immediate striking area or "zone of control". In game terms, figures at 1" are toe to toe. The exact rule from CHAINMAIL is: "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1" on either side of themselves to stop infiltration." (p14, 2ed) Or again from the wraith entry "Touch means either actual contact or coming within 1" of."

Jan 24, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6 graelth said:

Additionally, this same passage informs us that wilderness surprise is "the same as in the underworld". So what is happening with underworld surprise... Then I looked around a little more and noticed this on page 12....

Avoiding Monsters: Monsters will automatically attack and/or pursue any characters they “see,” with the exception of those monsters which are intelligent enough to avoid an obviously superior force. There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 20 feet, unless the monster itself has been surprised.

Ok, something special is happening with surprise at 2 scale inches as well... monsters cannot be avoided at all.

Good observation on the surrounding rule!

Jan 24, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6 graelth said:

The wilderness rules stipulate moreover that a surprise combat even at 3 scale inches cannot be escaped if the monsters have the opportunity to encircle the players. Presumably these rules are the same, with the dungeon rule representing the opportunity for monsters to block off chokepoints like doorways by interposing themselves between the players and their route of escape, and the wilderness rule representing the monsters encircling the players.

The rule only says that surprise by 3 or more monsters in the outdoors will mean the characters are surrounded. It can't be correlated to the 2" dungeon rule because that rule applies to any number, including only 1 monster.

Jan 24, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6 graelth said:

Now, this infamous passage on page 9 is starting to make a LOT more sense... Let's read it again:

Surprise: A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware of the presence of the other. Such things as ESP’ing, light, and noise will negate surprise. If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised. Distance is then 10–30 feet.

Surprise gives the advantage of a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat. If monsters gain surprise they will either close the distance between themselves and the character(s) (unless they are intelligent and their prey is obviously too strong to attack) or attack. For example a Wyvern surprises a party of four characters when they round a corner into a large open area. It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet. The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the Wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again before the adventurers strike back.

So what do we have here?

Surprise grants:
• Automatically: A free round of combat ("a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat") and enemy cannot evade.
• A free attack on top of that, if the monster is within 1"
• The impossibility of escape if the monster is within 2" (in the dungeon)
• The impossibility of escape if the monster is within 3" (in the wilderness)

I don't see any rule that conforms to impossibility of escape if the monster is within 3" in the wilderness. Logically, if surprise "is the same as in the underworld", then the impossibility of escape would be when the monster is within 2" (20 yards).

Jan 24, 2018 11:56:09 GMT -6 graelth said:

Thus, you roll for surprise (2 in 6 chance, normally), then the distance roll indicates how much the monsters are able to do within the time it takes for the party to react. This is, quite simply and logically, a factor of distance. If surprise lasts something like 30 seconds, then a short sprint across 10 feet gives you more than enough time to attack and do something else (like attack again!) before combat begins. If you have to travel 20 feet, you still get to do one free action, and moreover you have enough time to maneuver so the enemy cannot simply turn tail and run (by blocking off exits, etc.). If you have to travel 30 feet, then it is simply normal surprise and you just get your free action.

This makes perfect sense to me. Travelling any distance takes a certain amount of time... the less distance you need to travel, the more you can spend your time on other things. So that infamous passage on page 9 should be interpreted...

"The Wyvern attacks as it is within automatic striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating the distance was but 10 feet (roll a d6 and divide the result by 2, as you would determine a d3). The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the Wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again (or do any other action) before the adventurers strike back, because it gets a free combat round."

Adding text about splitting a d6 by 2, is a slippery slope and doesn't really follow from what is written.

If I may, without I hope, sounding like an ass, let me suggest you reread my post, and the previous post on surprise (you only linked to the second one). It wasn't only about using a single dice roll for surprise and surprise distance - that was merely an observation of the apparent rule, it was about the difference between "complete surprise" at a distance of 1" - 2" and surprise between 2+" and 3". Largely, I think you will see we are saying the same thing, except I point out that rolling a distance die is redundant and not called for in the rules.

[flightcommander]

I dunno, to me this seems very clear. The example has assumed that the adventurers rolled a 1 (they are surprised) while the wyvern rolled a 6 (it is not surprised). Then there is a distance roll of 2, which equates to about 10 feet. The wyvern attacks (the results are not important). Then, because it has surprise, the wyvern may attack again (or move). What am I missing?

[aldarron]

Feb 7, 2018 22:49:37 GMT -6 flightcommander said:

I dunno, to me this seems very clear. The example has assumed that the adventurers rolled a 1 (they are surprised) while the wyvern rolled a 6 (it is not surprised). Then there is a distance roll of 2, which equates to about 10 feet. The wyvern attacks (the results are not important). Then, because it has surprise, the wyvern may attack again (or move). What am I missing?

Hoping that wasn't a rhetorical question, you are missing the fact that there is no rule to roll surprise distance.

Try setting assumptions aside. One of the biggest challenges for folks who want the *genuine* OD&D experience is not back reading later rules and methods into the original. That's a problem with most of the OD&D retroclones (offhand I can think of three exceptions (DD, CoZ, BBB), only one of which is somewhat popular). Most of the retroclones play like BX or AD&D lite; they don't have that flavor of wild rebel gaming that is inherent in OD&D. The simplest explanation of the Wyvern passage, that requires the least amount of assumption is that the players rolled for surprise, got a 2, and were thus subject to two attacks. The Wyvern was not surprised. As to why the PC's lost two rounds instead of one, the best explanation would seem to lie in the 20' rule and the use of the term "complete surprise" for rolling a 2 as explained in EW. If the PC's had rolled a 1 they still would have been surprised, but the wyvern would have had to use a round to close the distance to the PC's as explained in the FAQ, and so would only have gotten 1 attack.

[coffee]

Feb 8, 2018 7:11:16 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Hoping that wasn't a rhetorical question, you are missing the fact that there is no rule to roll surprise distance.

From surprise:

"Distance is then 10 - 30 feet."

From the example:

"It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet."

To me, that looks like a rule to roll surprise distance.

[graelth]

Thank you for the replies, everyone! Aldarron, I think you might be misreading my post, mate! I am not confused about the scale shift between underworld and wilderness—that's all clear!

What I meant to say is that I've ignored the line on U&WA pg 17 for years and years, because it clearly says that surprising monsters may attack if within 1", but this seems to be saying nothing new. After all, monsters have always been able to attack within 3" (this is just the standard melee attack range in the game). So if monsters can attack within 3", of course they can attack within 1" as well!

That's been my view for years. Recently, however, I realized that the line on page 17 is NOT just reiterating attack range... it is saying surprising monsters get a special attack if within 1". THAT is my new realization... pretty humble, I know, and always subject to different interpretation, but to me it is pretty significant!

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

For the sake of clarity, if you are wondering why 1" is specified, the 1" distance merely indicates the immediate striking area or "zone of control". In game terms, figures at 1" are toe to toe. The exact rule from CHAINMAIL is: "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1" on either side of themselves to stop infiltration." (p14, 2ed) Or again from the wraith entry "Touch means either actual contact or coming within 1" of."

That is a good observation, but it actually has nothing to do with attack range in melee (and the passage on U&WA page 17 says monsters may attack within 1"... touch here is irrelevant). That is to say, according to Chainmail, "touch" or "control" range has nothing to do with melee attack range (which is super counterintuitive to a modern reader, because we are trained to think that attack distance must always have something to do with reach/touch distance).

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The rule only says that surprise by 3 or more monsters in the outdoors will mean the characters are surrounded. It can't be correlated to the 2" dungeon rule because that rule applies to any number, including only 1 monster.

Remember, there is at least one correlation—both clauses have to do with surprise and the (im)possibility of escape. As far as correlating the conditions of escape, you are absolutely right—I'm being creative here! In my imagination, I would think that escape in the wilderness has to do with being surrounded (hence the line on U&WA pg 17 about 3+ monsters being able to encircle the players), whereas escape in the dungeon has to do with chokepoints... more often than not, there will only be one path of egress for the dungeoneering party—the way they came. This is because any other route will be unexplored and (even worse) will have stuck doors... remember, all dungeon doors are at least stuck, if not locked and trapped! In this scenario, even a single surprising monster could cut off the one path of escape by interposing itself between the party and the door (or corridor, if the encounter happens in a hallway). Granted, I am being very creative here... there will certainly be some times when there are more than one escape route possible, in which case I would rule that only certain exits are cut off if insufficient foes are available to block them (maybe the monsters are actually funnelling the players into a trap, however!).

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

I don't see any rule that conforms to impossibility of escape if the monster is within 3" in the wilderness. Logically, if surprise "is the same as in the underworld", then the impossibility of escape would be when the monster is within 2" (20 yards).

The rule is given on page 17 of U&WA. According to the line, any surprise (whether at 1", 2" or 3") will prevent escape if there are 3+ monsters. My apologies for not being clear... this is the rule I was referring to!

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Adding text about splitting a d6 by 2, is a slippery slope and doesn't really follow from what is written.

You are absolutely right, there is no explicit rule for determining surprise distance. The line on page 9 of U&WA literally just says "A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised. Distance is then 10–30 feet." I would point out, however, that there are many places in the rules where a number range is given with no explicit instruction to use random number generators (a.k.a., dice) to determine the number (such as "number appearing" column for wilderness monster encounters, M&T page 3-4). I would also point out that a range of 1-3 is determined by rolling a die and dividing it in half in other sections of the rulebook. For instance, on page 7 of Monsters & Treasure:

KOBOLDS: Treat these monsters as if they were Goblins except that they will take from 1–3 hits (roll a six-sided die with a 1 or 2 equalling 1 hit, a 3 or 4 equalling 2 hits, etc.).

So it is clear to me that Gary used this method for generating numbers between 1 and 3 (and there is no other method recommended anywhere in the rules). But I think referees should feel free to determine the surprise distance however they wish... just picking a number on the spot (maybe considering different factors), rolling it with some other dice, drawing a card and so on.

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

If I may, without I hope, sounding like an ass, let me suggest you reread my post, and the previous post on surprise (you only linked to the second one). It wasn't only about using a single dice roll for surprise and surprise distance - that was merely an observation of the apparent rule, it was about the difference between "complete surprise" at a distance of 1" - 2" and surprise between 2+" and 3". Largely, I think you will see we are saying the same thing, except I point out that rolling a distance die is redundant and not called for in the rules.

Not at all! I really enjoyed reading your post (and your other posts here) as well as your blog. I actually thought no one was going to chime in on my idea and was happy to see your thoughtful analysis as well as your own interpretations.

[graelth]

Feb 7, 2018 22:49:37 GMT -6 flightcommander said:

I dunno, to me this seems very clear. The example has assumed that the adventurers rolled a 1 (they are surprised) while the wyvern rolled a 6 (it is not surprised). Then there is a distance roll of 2, which equates to about 10 feet. The wyvern attacks (the results are not important). Then, because it has surprise, the wyvern may attack again (or move). What am I missing?

Yep, precisely! The only thing new I am saying is that I think I've come across why the wyvern makes the first attack. My conclusion is that surprise within 10' allows an extra attack on top of the surprise action.

There are two interesting things I've discovered since then... the first is that Judges Guild (who were always quite careful readers of the rules) came to a very similar conclusion. In the Ready Ref sheets, they explain surprise in OD&D by saying surprise by monster allows the monster 2 free rounds if within 10' or 1 free round if within 20-30'. Now this is exactly my conclusion as well, except I disagree that you get 2 free rounds within 10'... I say you get 1 free attack and 1 free round (which may, of course, be another attack). The monster cannot, for example, cast two spells during surprise, or move twice and so on (according to my reading of the rules, that is!).

Now this matches closely the second thing I've noticed since making my post. In the AD&D 1e (always a useful secondary text for interpreting Gary's writing in OD&D), surprise allows you to move a little bit, possibly cast a single spell, or make a metric boatload of attacks... Gary seemed to recognize that 10 seconds or so of surprise didn't give you a lot of room to move or cast, but you could easily stab a defenseless target 20 times or more in that amount of time. This seems to back up (albeit from a later source) the idea that 10' surprise gives you an extra attack on top of the surprise action, since you could only make those bonus attacks in AD&D if you were really close to the target (moving towards the target really ate up your surprise segments in AD&D).

[aldarron]

Feb 8, 2018 7:53:03 GMT -6 coffee said:

Feb 8, 2018 7:11:16 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Hoping that wasn't a rhetorical question, you are missing the fact that there is no rule to roll surprise distance.

From surprise:

"Distance is then 10 - 30 feet."

From the example:

"It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet."

To me, that looks like a rule to roll surprise distance.

Looks like Coffee? Well yeah, it looks like that, and with no other clear explanation in the books, no doubt that is exactly why people got into the now deeply ingrained habit of rolling a second die for distance. However, I'll point it out again, there is no such rule, and I'm not at all sure there was ever intended to be, because it isn't needed.

There are only 2 possibilities in a 1"-3" range. You are either between 10 - 20 feet, or you are between 20 - 30 feet. When you roll for surprise, There are likewise only 2 surprise possibilities. These occur on a 1 or a 2, and 2 is referred to in the supplements and MM as "complete surprise" it is also the number at which the Wyvern got 2 attacks. Thus, the by the book explanation of the wyverns 2 attacks is that 2 was rolled for surprise by the PC's, placing them within the closer distance and making them subject to 2 attacks. It's a pretty simple mechanic if you choose to play it that way.

[aldarron]

Feb 8, 2018 9:21:55 GMT -6 graelth said:

Thank you for the replies, everyone! Aldarron, I think you might be misreading my post, mate! I am not confused about the scale shift between underworld and wilderness—that's all clear!

What I meant to say is that I've ignored the line on U&WA pg 17 for years and years, because it clearly says that surprising monsters may attack if within 1", but this seems to be saying nothing new. After all, monsters have always been able to attack within 3" (this is just the standard melee attack range in the game). So if monsters can attack within 3", of course they can attack within 1" as well!

That's been my view for years. Recently, however, I realized that the line on page 17 is NOT just reiterating attack range... it is saying surprising monsters get a special attack if within 1". THAT is my new realization... pretty humble, I know, and always subject to different interpretation, but to me it is pretty significant!

Feb 7, 2018 15:41:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

For the sake of clarity, if you are wondering why 1" is specified, the 1" distance merely indicates the immediate striking area or "zone of control". In game terms, figures at 1" are toe to toe. The exact rule from CHAINMAIL is: "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1" on either side of themselves to stop infiltration." (p14, 2ed) Or again from the wraith entry "Touch means either actual contact or coming within 1" of."

That is a good observation, but it actually has nothing to do with attack range in melee (and the passage on U&WA page 17 says monsters may attack within 1"... touch here is irrelevant). That is to say, according to Chainmail, "touch" or "control" range has nothing to do with melee attack range (which is super counterintuitive to a modern reader, because we are trained to think that attack distance must always have something to do with reach/touch distance).

Well, I'll admit I was a bit baffled on to how to respond, like being asked to comment on a message about how to use square circles.... There may be some confusion here with the rules of some wargames where attacks required that figures touch bases, but that is not the case with CM. CM uses all sorts of figures, including ones without bases. "touch" range is therefore 1" and has everything to do with melee. It is, as the rule says, the barrier beyond which no figure can infiltrate, because it is the personal "touch" range/space of the figure, AKA the zone of control.

In the wilderness 1" equals 30 feet, in the dungeon 10, and this 1" distance is considered the touch distance and the distance through which a figure cannot infiltrate past another. The rules are the same, though the scale has changed.

However, I think you are suggesting that in D&D combat there is a special 0"-1" space - and that's just not the case in either the D&D or CM rules. There is no special within 1" distance. The 1" to 3" Melee Range is the functional, abstract distance within which figures scramble to and fro in combat. Being "within" 1" is the same as being at 1" "touch" distance in the abstract terms of combat in both games.

Don't misunderstand Graelth, I'm not suggestiong you should play any way other than you want to, only that I think you have seen something "clearly" in the U&WA p17 rule that isn't really there.

[graelth]

Aldarron, thanks for the reply and very interesting stuff. I think my point about the 1” attack mentioned in U&WA 17 is just to tell an anecdote about why I ignored that line previously.

I am a bit curious, though, if you could answer the question that I posed to myself at the top of the thread, so that I could better understand your reading of things. So, why does page 17 specify that monsters may attack at 1”, considering that the rules state elsewhere that monsters can attack within 3” (which would include 2”, 1” and so on)?

I believe I know what your answer will be, but I'll let you answer first.

[aldarron]

Feb 12, 2018 13:09:51 GMT -6 graelth said:

Aldarron, thanks for the reply and very interesting stuff. I think my point about the 1” attack mentioned in U&WA 17 is just to tell an anecdote about why I ignored that line previously.

I am a bit curious, though, if you could answer the question that I posed to myself at the top of the thread, so that I could better understand your reading of things. So, why does page 17 specify that monsters may attack at 1”, considering that the rules state elsewhere that monsters can attack within 3” (which would include 2”, 1” and so on)?

I believe I know what your answer will be, but I'll let you answer first.

"Monsters at 10 yards distance will be able to attack." in the wilderness is the same rule as "There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 20 feet, unless the monster itself has been surprised." in the dungeon.

So the monster doesn't have to use a "surprise segment" to close the distance before attacking. It can just attack.

One might rephrase those two as ""Monsters at 1" distance will be able to attack. There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 2", unless the monster itself has been surprised."

Within 2" is the same thing as 1"

The scale here is 1" to 1.99, 2-2.99, 3-3.99" - that's why, for example, normal sighting distance starts at 40 yards (not 31). These figures are of course generalizations because a group of adventurers might easily cover 15 feet or more. So, unless it is a solitary figure in slow motion 3" means "around 3".

[sixdemonbag]

Any chance that someone could put together a "BtB" encounter nested procedure or flowchart that illustrates surprise/distance/intitiative? I put "BtB" in scare quotes because I know a lot of this is up to interpretation. It could be a fun academic exercise. Maybe separate underground/wilderness procedures would help too.

I usually just roll for surprise (if necessary), then roll for initiative without accounting for distance or "move segments". I know this is a gross oversimplification though and I'm curious how it's actually supposed to work.

I'd attempt it myself, but I'm sure I'd butcher it and cause more confusion and then everyone would laugh at me. 

[Merias]

Surprise distance is 10-30 feet, you could determine that any way you like, but it must be determined, according to the passage quoted. They are using a d6 roll of [1-]2 to mean 10 feet, and by implication 3-4 means 20 feet, and 5-6 means 30 feet. I don't think anything else makes sense the way that section is worded.

But the important part is the first sentence "Surprise gives the advantage of a free move segment, whether to flee, cast a spell or engage in combat". If we take that literally, without imposing all the future edition baggage we all have when interpreting these rules, it is in addition to any normal action. Which is why I wrote this in that blog post linked by graelth:

"This is interesting because it says that surprise really nets the party or the monster two free actions – a move and attack, two attacks (if the initial distance is 10 feet), or two moves. presumably the latter would be used by a monster that wanted to flee a much stronger party, since at these close distances, the first move would always bring the monster within melee distance if so desired."

I don't think that interpretation is too far-fetched, it just says that if you get surprised by something that is already within close striking distance, you get attacked twice.

[derv]

See this past thread for interrelated ramblings and rumblings on the subject.

I guess I'll add a couple snippets to the conversation. This thread is discussing two separate things- surprise and distance determination. What's important to recognize is that the game closely links the passage of time with movement. For the most part the game uses movement to determine the passage of time (a turn) in both the wilderness and in the dungeon. It's one of the reasons PC's and monsters are given movement rates.

"Movement is in segments of approximately ten minutes. Thus it takes ten minutes to move about two moves- 120 feet for a fully armored character. Two moves constitute a turn." p8 U&WA

"Surprise gives the advantage of a free move segment." p9 U&WA

See also the SR FAQ- of interest there is an example of 10 Orcs who have surprised a Hero and the distance has been determined to be 30 feet. The Orcs are able to "close to melee distance", but they do not get a free attack. Initiative is then checked.

In my mind surprise is mechanically the same as initiative. There's no need to complicate the issue. I therefore see no reason to believe that distance is subsumed into the surprise roll. Distance is not subsumed into the initiative roll where no surprise exists. Distance must be diced for. It is given in ranges for situations where both surprise and no surprise exist. The LBB's frequently use ranges, instead of die notations, where you are intended to roll dice. There is plenty of precedent for this. It's very reasonable to conclude that distance is/was determined separately from the surprise roll. The least of which is that you are instructed to roll for distance when surprise does not exist. Far from being an ingrained habit, it would seem to be a jump in logic to not think you should roll separately for distances, rule or no rule.

Otherwise, if you've read the thread I linked to, you will see that I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really matter whether you are 1" or 3" away in cases of surprise. This is well within striking distance for most monsters.

[sixdemonbag]

Thanks for linking to that thread derv .

[premmy]

First publication of DnD: 1974


Thread Date: Jan 24 2018

Thread Title: I think I figured out surprise!



Old-school DnD in a nutshell.

[aldarron]

Feb 13, 2018 18:11:03 GMT -6 derv said:

.....

See also the SR FAQ- of interest there is an example of 10 Orcs who have surprised a Hero and the distance has been determined to be 30 feet. The Orcs are able to "close to melee distance", but they do not get a free attack. Initiative is then checked.

In my mind surprise is mechanically the same as initiative. There's no need to complicate the issue. I therefore see no reason to believe that distance is subsumed into the surprise roll. Distance is not subsumed into the initiative roll where no surprise exists. Distance must be diced for. It is given in ranges for situations where both surprise and no surprise exist.

Perfectly valid and viable approach if you use an initiative roll, of course. However, 3 lbb D&D didn't have a standard initiative roll. That didn't come into the game "officially" until '75, and wasn't a consideration when the '74 rules were written. <shrug>

Feb 13, 2018 18:11:03 GMT -6 derv said:

.....The 3LBB's frequently use ranges, instead of die notations, where you are intended to roll dice. There is plenty of precedent for this. It's very reasonable to conclude that distance is/was determined separately from the surprise roll. The least of which is that you are instructed to roll for distance when surprise does not exist. Far from being an ingrained habit, it would seem to be a jump in logic to not think you should roll separately for distances, rule or no rule.

Heh its really kinda funny to me how much push back I've gotten over a really simple idea. Honestly I think it is a silly thing to argue about and it surprises me how conservative so many folks seem to be when it comes to ways of doing things. But that's okay, and I want to sincerely say folks should roll as many dice as they like. Have fun! My point is pretty simple, there is only one die roll actually indicated in the text, and you only need to roll one to tell you everything you need to know btb, but again if you enjoy rolling a second die for distance, by all means go right ahead. I'm not the game police or something.

[howandwhy99]

For me, surprise means one of the two parties in the Encounter spots the other before being spotted. This gives them the opportunity to hide. Which might lead to all number of actions (spying, trailing, ambushing - as in the case in the OP). There is also the very likely possibility of No Encounter, if the surpriser avoids. This negates some Wandering Monsters IMC.

All that "Distance To Encounter" stuff is determined by terrain primarily. And senses too, of course. But I believe they are referring to what we might call "Ambush Distances" (1d3x10 indoor/outdoor). Unlike mentioned above, I do believe it is possible to run and start evasion if their is an ambush. But if you're being ambushed most likely an ambusher seeking to start melee in a surprise round will successfully begin the encounter. They have a surprise round and a short distance to cover to reach melee range. Then the ambushed will need to Withdraw to start Pursuit & Evasion.

Unless its arrows from the trees or something, the ambushed party is going to find themselves pinned down before they know what's happening. (Which is the point).

[derv]

Feb 14, 2018 19:28:41 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Perfectly valid and viable approach if you use an initiative roll, of course. However, 3 lbb D&D didn't have a standard initiative roll. That didn't come into the game "officially" until '75, and wasn't a consideration when the '74 rules were written.

Well, if by "standard" you mean "as explicitly stated in the rules", there are many things that could fall under this category (also consider the point that is often made that the LBB's were quickly published and things left out to save space or assumed well understood). It doesn't mean it wasn't done. All the original players would have been aware of dicing for initiative. The co-author of Chainmail would have been well aware of dicing for initiative. It was a standard and established practice in wargames.

Initiative is still a mixed bag. People determine it the way they prefer. That's okay. My point was not in how initiative is determined. It's that it is a separate mechanic from determining distance.

Feb 14, 2018 19:28:41 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Heh its really kinda funny to me how much push back I've gotten over a really simple idea. Honestly I think it is a silly thing to argue about and it surprises me how conservative so many folks seem to be when it comes to ways of doing things. But that's okay, and I want to sincerely say folks should roll as many dice as they like. Have fun! My point is pretty simple, there is only one die roll actually indicated in the text, and you only need to roll one to tell you everything you need to know btb, but again if you enjoy rolling a second die for distance, by all means go right ahead. I'm not the game police or something.

I don't think anyone is against your idea of only rolling one die. I think the push back is that you are suggesting people are misreading the intent of the text and essentially a bunch of dunderheads.

Ranges are used through out the LBB's with the obvious intent that they be diced for. Yet, in this instance you are suggesting that is not the intent. If it is not the intent I don't think we would have been given a range. Instead we would have been given a result. The text would have said something like a 1= 30 feet and a 2= 10 feet distance. There would not have been any need for making a distinction between this idea of "surprise" and "complete surprise" because 10 feet is striking distance.

It also leads to unnecessary questioning of the intent of other text where ranges are given and no mention of rolling actual dice is given. For instance, thumb through the pages in M&M under spell descriptions where a range is used. Sometimes it tells you to roll dice for quantity, distance, or duration. Sometimes it doesn't. What's the common sense solution?

Another common mechanic found in the LBB's is the 1-2 in 6 chance that is used for surprise. It's also used for listening, springing traps, locating secret doors, doors being forced open, monsters continuing to pursue, etc.

As I already said, I don't really find the 1-3" melee range that important in my game. 1", 2", or 3" is often much the same at the start of an encounter. So, I'm certainly not against you only rolling one die for surprise and distance, if you choose.

[howandwhy99]

Not to muck things up, but here's a question:

Is 1-3 squares starting distance:
A. 1-3 squares distant from the ambushed party members formation. Or
B. Adjacent 10 square, 1 square away, and 2 squares away.

My reading historically has always been A. But now I think about the intent, I could see the distance meaning "anywhere from right on top of you" to the edge of 3 squares away. Option B.

Thoughts?

[graelth]

howandwhy99 , interesting, where do you see mention of squares? The rules are for miniatures and inches. I use a tape measure at my table. Attacks can be made at 1” means, in my mind, attacks can be made once the enemy figure is 1” away or less (such as 3/4 inch, 3/8 inch and what have you). Likewise for a melee range of 3”.

I've really enjoyed everyone's interpretations of both surprise and surprise distance. I remain convinced of my method, though, for what it's worth... to me, the U&WA page 17 line about surprising monsters may attack at 1” is thoroughly convincing... why else would they get to attack at 1”, if it is not some special rule for surprise? Otherwise, it would have read "monsters can attack at 3”, as per the normal rules for melee distance." Here, 1” is singled out because it is in fact a special bonus attack on top of the normal bonus surprise action. The example of the wyvern is a word-for-word perfect example of this interpretation!

I wouldn't split hairs with someone who wanted to interpret it as a second bonus surprise action at 1” distance... Judges Guild certainly read it this way. But a literal reading suggests it is only an attack and in any case this matches AD&D much more closely (where a short surprise distance netted you potentially many bonus melee attacks).

[graelth]

Feb 13, 2018 11:17:17 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Feb 12, 2018 13:09:51 GMT -6 graelth said:

Aldarron, thanks for the reply and very interesting stuff. I think my point about the 1” attack mentioned in U&WA 17 is just to tell an anecdote about why I ignored that line previously.

I am a bit curious, though, if you could answer the question that I posed to myself at the top of the thread, so that I could better understand your reading of things. So, why does page 17 specify that monsters may attack at 1”, considering that the rules state elsewhere that monsters can attack within 3” (which would include 2”, 1” and so on)?

I believe I know what your answer will be, but I'll let you answer first.

"Monsters at 10 yards distance will be able to attack." in the wilderness is the same rule as "There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 20 feet, unless the monster itself has been surprised." in the dungeon.

So the monster doesn't have to use a "surprise segment" to close the distance before attacking. It can just attack.

One might rephrase those two as ""Monsters at 1" distance will be able to attack. There is no chance for avoiding if the monster has surprised the adventurers and is within 2", unless the monster itself has been surprised."

Within 2" is the same thing as 1"

The scale here is 1" to 1.99, 2-2.99, 3-3.99" - that's why, for example, normal sighting distance starts at 40 yards (not 31). These figures are of course generalizations because a group of adventurers might easily cover 15 feet or more. So, unless it is a solitary figure in slow motion 3" means "around 3".

Thanks for that, it was actually different than what I expected and it helped clarify your position a great deal!

It is a plausible reading of the rules. It would mean that the melee attack range of 3” is ignored in the case of surprise (perhaps because a surprise segment represents only a few seconds and not an entire 1-minute combat round, so there is less time for the maneuvering that is presumed to happen within the 3” melee distance in a combat round). In this case, as you say, melee range is reduced to 1” distance and all attackers beyond that will merely get to move up and attack in the regular combat round.

It's not perfectly clear to me why the wyvern would attack twice before the players under this interpretation. Perhaps if you add U&WA pages 17 and 9 together, you get something like this:

If surprise at 1”, monster may attack immediately (page 17)
Surprise then grants free action, which may be an attack at 1”, otherwise move or spell (page 9)

It's an odd rule, though, because it means you either attack twice in surprise or do not attack at all.

[derv]

I guess I'll throw one more monkey wrench into the works. I'm not sure if anyone has given much thought about cases where both parties are surprised. Consider a case where one rolled a "1" and the other rolled a "2". What's the encounter distance, who gets to act (does anyone get to act), and what are they able to do?

For me, a "1" allows one free move segment. A "2" allows two free segments. Distance is a separate roll. I would cancel out the first move segment where both parties are surprised. One party would recover and gain the advantage of a free move- to flee, close the distance, attack, or wait it out and negotiate. Whatever they choose.

[derv]

Feb 16, 2018 17:45:09 GMT -6 Piper said:

I don’t use “complete surprise” ... a party is surprised or not. If both roll a result of surprised then neither gets a free move but they are at surprise encounter distance.

This would probably be my other choice for handling surprise. It's straight forward. Honestly, I'm pretty conservative in using surprise. The situation would have to warrant it or be intentional. I'm not rolling for surprise every time a door is pushed open. So yeah, I think this a reasonable approach.

I always forget where I picked up on this idea of a 2= 2 move segments. I'm not really a later edition guy. I haven't played AD&D since a kid. OD&D and T&T is about the only roleplaying games I play. I realize it's basically a house rule. But, I reason that the Wyvern example seems to support it. This sort of thing can bug me enough that I end up searching my notes and the web to find an answer. It's possible I could have even picked it up on here.

After frivolously wasting much time, I found it. It's in the Q&A with Gary on DF. Gary talks about surprise, initiative, and interrupting spells. Take it for what it's worth, he says it's how he's been doing it for the past 33 years and the post was from 2005.

[graelth]

Feb 17, 2018 7:53:40 GMT -6 derv said:

Feb 16, 2018 17:45:09 GMT -6 Piper said:

I don’t use “complete surprise” ... a party is surprised or not. If both roll a result of surprised then neither gets a free move but they are at surprise encounter distance.

This would probably be my other choice for handling surprise. It's straight forward. Honestly, I'm pretty conservative in using surprise. The situation would have to warrant it or be intentional. I'm not rolling for surprise every time a door is pushed open. So yeah, I think this a reasonable approach.

I always forget where I picked up on this idea of a 2= 2 move segments. I'm not really a later edition guy. I haven't played AD&D since a kid. OD&D and T&T is about the only roleplaying games I play. I realize it's basically a house rule. But, I reason that the Wyvern example seems to support it. This sort of thing can bug me enough that I end up searching my notes and the web to find an answer. It's possible I could have even picked it up on here.

After frivolously wasting much time, I found it. It's in the Q&A with Gary on DF. Gary talks about surprise, initiative, and interrupting spells. Take it for what it's worth, he says it's how he's been doing it for the past 33 years and the post was from 2005.

Yep, that's right, it's in Gary's 2005 house rules. It's not a bad rule! I would note though that it has nothing to do with "complete surprise" as discussed in Eldritch Wizardry.

[Stormcrow]

Dear World: D&D is not Chainmail.

You guys are making mountains out of molehills here, apparently in an attempt to claim first ascent of the mountain.

The procedure is simple:

1. Determine surprise with a d6. 1–2 equals side is surprised.
2. Determine distance between parties.
   1. If characters are surprised, distance is 10–30 (determined with 1d3×10, read as feet indoors or yards outdoors).
   2. If characters are not surprised, distance is 20–80 (2d4×10 feet or yards).

In any case, melee distance in D&D is "next to me." When you break down distance into 1″ scale units, 1″ equals "next to me." Where D&D says "If monsters gain surprise they will either close the distance between themselves and the character(s)... or attack," it simply means "if the monsters can attack immediately, they will do so, otherwise they will spend the surprise segment closing to attack."

That 3″ melee range thing from Chainmail? Not in D&D (except for aerial combat which, obviously, works a lot differently than guys with swords standing around in stone corridors).

That's all it means. If the monsters want to attack, and they're at 1″ or have ranged weapons, they will attack immediately. Otherwise they have to close the distance. During a surprise segment, closing the distance uses up all your surprise, and play goes to the next combat round.

Later supplements added nuances to surprise and initiative and distance, but you can't read that stuff backward into the original rules.

[aldarron]

Feb 14, 2018 22:27:28 GMT -6 derv said:

Feb 14, 2018 19:28:41 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Perfectly valid and viable approach if you use an initiative roll, of course. However, 3 lbb D&D didn't have a standard initiative roll. That didn't come into the game "officially" until '75, and wasn't a consideration when the '74 rules were written.

Well, if by "standard" you mean "as explicitly stated in the rules", there are many things that could fall under this category (also consider the point that is often made that the LBB's were quickly published and things left out to save space or assumed well understood). It doesn't mean it wasn't done. All the original players would have been aware of dicing for initiative. The co-author of Chainmail would have been well aware of dicing for initiative. It was a standard and established practice in wargames.

I'm afraid I have to challenge that assertion. The individual medieval combat rules of the period of which I am familiar do not dice for initiative. I stand by the statement that it wasn't an expected part of play in the rules of 1974, and I wouldn't assume anybody was using a d6 initiative. Typically initiative was based on position and weapons and/or who was attacking - as with the weapon complexity rules of Chainmail man to man or the weapon length rules of DB#5 or Warriors of Mars.

Feb 14, 2018 22:27:28 GMT -6 derv said:

Feb 14, 2018 19:28:41 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Heh its really kinda funny to me how much push back I've gotten over a really simple idea. Honestly I think it is a silly thing to argue about and it surprises me how conservative so many folks seem to be when it comes to ways of doing things. But that's okay, and I want to sincerely say folks should roll as many dice as they like. Have fun! My point is pretty simple, there is only one die roll actually indicated in the text, and you only need to roll one to tell you everything you need to know btb, but again if you enjoy rolling a second die for distance, by all means go right ahead. I'm not the game police or something.

I don't think anyone is against your idea of only rolling one die. I think the push back is that you are suggesting people are misreading the intent of the text and essentially a bunch of dunderheads.

Hmmm, well then let me begin with an apology. I never, ever, meant to imply you or anybody else was being a dunce. I said, and I meant, that "I'm not at all sure there was ever intended to be" a rule to roll a second die. I'm doubtful, uncertain, I don't know the original intent, opening the door for a different understanding.

Feb 14, 2018 22:27:28 GMT -6 derv said:

Ranges are used through out the LBB's with the obvious intent that they be diced for. Yet, in this instance you are suggesting that is not the intent. If it is not the intent I don't think we would have been given a range. Instead we would have been given a result. The text would have said something like a 1= 30 feet and a 2= 10 feet distance. There would not have been any need for making a distinction between this idea of "surprise" and "complete surprise" because 10 feet is striking distance.

You do see that you are making a guess there right? Because the text in question is non specific. I made a different guess for different reasons.

Feb 14, 2018 22:27:28 GMT -6 derv said:

It also leads to unnecessary questioning of the intent of other text where ranges are given and no mention of rolling actual dice is given. For instance, thumb through the pages in M&M under spell descriptions where a range is used. Sometimes it tells you to roll dice for quantity, distance, or duration. Sometimes it doesn't. What's the common sense solution?.

kinda sounds like a gateway drug argument here - next thing you know those kids won't be rolling dice for any ranges - or something like that, but be that as it may, I see nothing wrong with calling intent into question. When it comes to rules and procedures in the 3lbb's, I try to not assume any universals, because of the continuous growth and experimentation with rules going on at the time. That's just the way I prefer to approach the text.

[graelth]

Feb 17, 2018 19:50:08 GMT -6 Piper said:

Feb 17, 2018 19:39:06 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

You guys are making mountains out of molehills here, apparently in an attempt to claim first ascent of the mountain.

Sorry Stormcrow. Posts deleted. Take care!

Right, Stormcrow's got the matter sorted. Could we please get the mods to lock the thread and put up an announcement that there are to be no more posts on the matter?

[derv]

Wasn't aware this was a heated discussion.

So far no one has said anything that seems offensive. There's just some strong opinion on the matter. I don't even think Stormcows comment was pointed at you Piper. It seemed clear to me you were presenting how you like to play it in your game. My apple cart is still standing.

I've had long winded debates with aldarron before. I believe he and I take it all in good spirits- with an understanding that each is making a defense of their assertions and weeding out information through common debate. If not, let me offer an apology to him. Perhaps that is what some are bothered by.

So, I will cease and desist. But in truth I find these extreme reactions confusing and really think everyone needs to lighten up.

[Stormcrow]

Feb 18, 2018 6:45:13 GMT -6 derv said:

I don't even think Stormcows comment was pointed at you Piper .

It wasn't. It was a general comment about how everyone on this forum is always so focused on unearthing the arcane secrets hidden in various turns of phrase in the rules that you don't even realize that the real meaning is simply what it seems to say on the surface. Those turns of phrase are just idiosyncratic writing, not carefully constructed and nuanced instructions.

Didja ever do that exercise in school where you have to write instructions on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? Everyone KNOWS how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but can you write out the exact procedure, with no room for error? The students write their instructions, then the teacher attempts to follow them, interpreting the instructions literally and taking any opportunity to get it wrong within the letter of the instructions. Some kids write "put peanut butter on bread," and the teacher would put the jar of peanut butter on the bread. Stuff like that. Mine almost got the job done, but at the end, when I said "push the two pieces of bread together by the flat sides," I neglected to include the instruction that the peanut butter side should be pushed against the jelly side; the teacher intentionally pushed them together the wrong way.

The point is that Gygax et al weren't writing careful, exacting specifications for the game; they were writing colloquially about fairly simple concepts (albeit concepts being put together in a new way at the time). We all know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but if you know someone who has never seen one before, they're still going to understand basic concepts like taking the peanut butter out of the jar before putting it on the bread. You wouldn't write that in instructions to a human being. Likewise, when the D&D authors write things that SEEM obvious and straightforward, they usually ARE obvious and straightforward, even if they aren't explained clearly or exactly.

With surprise, distance, and free attacks, there is nothing hidden here that we've been doing wrong all these years. There is no discovery to be made. If you're surprised, distance is short; if the distance isn't 1", the monsters can spend their free turn closing that distance. It's just explained in that idiosyncratic Gygaxian way that makes people think there's more there than there really is.