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Post by countingwizard on Jan 11, 2018 15:08:35 GMT -6
Some of the monster descriptions in Monsters & Treasure contain zero description of the monster. Particularly Goblins and Kobolds. Goblins says look at chainmail rules for a description, and the chainmail rules just describe their abilities. Kobolds are treated like weaker goblins, and Orcs are described as larger Goblins. I'm trying not to rely on material (both movies/books) produced after the LBB's, so when I come across stuff like this it is problematic to try and describe the monsters' appearance rather than just say the name of the monster. Are there any sources prior to the publishing of the AD&D Monster Manual that I could find guidance on these descriptions?
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 11, 2018 18:43:46 GMT -6
I think Gary was assuming that people would mentally supply images of goblins, kobolds, etc. as found in fairy tales.  |
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Post by talysman on Jan 11, 2018 18:48:14 GMT -6
If you don't want to use the description of goblins from The Hobbit or LotR, there's always The Princess and the Goblin (1872) and other books by George MacDonald. You can similarly look through fairy tale collections for descriptions of kobolds.
But honestly, aside from goblins being "little green men" and kobolds being "littler blue men" (maybe,) do you need much more? You can tailor their appearance to fit how you imagine them.
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Post by clownboss on Jan 12, 2018 7:39:33 GMT -6
Having not read AD&D material yet I struggle to grasp the equivalency of kobolds and hobgoblins in other stories. LOTR supplied the imagery for Goblins and Orcs fair enough.
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Post by countingwizard on Jan 12, 2018 8:40:35 GMT -6
I plan on going back through these fairy tales/fiction sources to write barebones descriptions of each monster in my own OD&D Monster Manual; but I'm still wondering if there are any other TSR sources that have these barebones descriptions already. I'm not super familiar with any modules, and I haven't gone through Dragon Magazines.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 12, 2018 8:59:05 GMT -6
I plan on going back through these fairy tales/fiction sources to write barebones descriptions of each monster in my own OD&D Monster Manual; but I'm still wondering if there are any other TSR sources that have these barebones descriptions already. I'm not super familiar with any modules, and I haven't gone through Dragon Magazines. I am relatively familiar with all the pre-Monster Manual D&D products. Other than a little bit of (occasional!) extra description in 1977's D&D Basic rulebook (edited by Eric Holmes), I do not recall any physical descriptions elsewhere in those early D&D products. |
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Post by countingwizard on Jan 12, 2018 9:15:22 GMT -6
I plan on going back through these fairy tales/fiction sources to write barebones descriptions of each monster in my own OD&D Monster Manual; but I'm still wondering if there are any other TSR sources that have these barebones descriptions already. I'm not super familiar with any modules, and I haven't gone through Dragon Magazines. I am relatively familiar with all the pre-Monster Manual D&D products. Other than a little bit of (occasional!) extra description in 1977's D&D Basic rulebook (edited by Eric Holmes), I do not recall any physical descriptions elsewhere in those early D&D products. Thanks Geoffrey, I didn't realize the Holmes version was written so early. I'll think about using some of those. |
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Post by Zenopus on Jan 12, 2018 11:26:04 GMT -6
Yeah, Holmes describes Kobolds as "dwarf-like", which is closer to their mythological origins than the Monster Manual illustrations.
Goblins don't get a physical description in Holmes, probably since they are well known from the Hobbit and other sources. Hobgoblins are just "big, powerful goblinoids" and bugbears are "great hairy goblin giants".
Ogres are "These large and fearsome humanoid monsters range from 7 to 10 feet in height and are of various disgusting colors"
Gnolls are the strange one. The gnoll entry was missing from the first printing of Holmes, even though there is a picture of them by Tom Wham on page 26. We know these are gnolls because their armor/weapons strongly match the pictures in the Monster Manual, even though it hadn't been published yet.
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Post by gemini476 on Jan 13, 2018 13:37:30 GMT -6
There's a couple images in the LBBs that may or may not be helpful (after all, it's just one artist's interpretation and there's two separate depictions of Nazgûl/Spectres).
A Goblin is on M&M p.29, with a big beard.
An Orc can be spotted on M&M p.24, looking rather like a gruff human with either a small mustache or your stereotypical bone-through-the-nose piercing.
A Hobgoblin is on M&M p.35, with somewhat spiky ears and what looks like clawed hands.
A Gnoll shows up on M&T p.10, grimacing with extremely spiky ears.
Unfortunately I can't seem to find any image of Kobolds, but I suspect that "smaller goblin" might be accurate enough.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 13, 2018 20:44:44 GMT -6
Swords & Spells (1976) also has some interesting illustrations to ponder.
pp 29-30 depicts a knight beating up on a bunch of pig-faced humanoids (presumably orcs). Seems (to me) reminiscent of Sutherland's inside cover illustration in Holmes (1977), and he is credited for the S&S illustrations.
See also the forces of the evil high priest (p35), which comprises a bunch of orcs (and other humanoids) and features some "snouty" troops on the left-hand side. On the left of the front cover we see three humanoids that I'd guess represent an orc (front), ogre (middle), and gnoll (back).
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