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Post by tetramorph on Dec 19, 2017 18:08:04 GMT -6
This spell confuses me when I think too hard about it (so I should stop, but here goes). I looked up some ancient threads on "protection from evil," e.g.: www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjVs46Dn5fYAhWr1IMKHbSGAJsQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fodd74.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F8819%2Fstory-protection-evil&usg=AOvVaw0ohLaSjqWDuo8lqcVnrA-Mwww.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjVs46Dn5fYAhWr1IMKHbSGAJsQFggxMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fodd74.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F7050%2Fremoving-evil-magic-user-spells&usg=AOvVaw2lmdJVe72y6FH1E_t0L51zHere is what does NOT confuse me: the meaning and use of the word "evil," in its title. Of course, "evil" just means, malicious intent towards the beneficiary of the spell. The name of the spell would probably have been better as simply "Protection," or left, as apparently it had previously been called, "Circle of Protection." Here is where I start to get confused (or, at least, hung up about it): It is either the weakest spell (when it is protection from "normal" enemies and it only gives you a single bonus and it won't even stack with other bonuses) or it is the most powerful spell EVER because it protects you from ANY enchanted creature. What monster isn't, in some sense, enchanted? Isn't that what makes a monster a monster? It isn't normal or regular, it is monstrous, fell, fay, mythical, legendary, magical . . . enchanted. So my big quandary is what counts as enchanted or not? Aren't all undead enchanted? Otherwise, would they not simply be dead, no "un-" necessary? In my campaign all "giant types" (fell to true giant) are really incarnate demons (of varying powers). Would they not also count as enchanted? Aren't all sylvan creatures, either hellenic or gothic, enchanted? You know, nymphs, dryads, gryphons, cocketrices, etc? Aren't all fay creatures also magical and therefore, in some sense, enchanted? You know, like elves, dwarves and gnomes? Aren't dragons incarnate demons? Don't many of them have the capacity for magic? So, aren't dragons enchanted? Okay, so human beings aren't enchanted. That is, unless they can fling magic. So magic-users are enchanted. So if you cast protection you don't even need to make saving throws. You are protected from evil. I guess my worry is that this spell is (to use a phrase I hate) "game breaking." What counts as enchanted or not? Or, more to the point, what criterion/a do you use to determine whether a monster counts as enchanted or not? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I really want to know how you all run this so I can run it with some consistency IMC. Fight on!
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Post by foxroe on Dec 19, 2017 18:22:05 GMT -6
I believe the intent is for "enchanted" to refer to summoned beings and magical constructs - so demons, devils, elementals, etc., and not elves, goblins, chimerae, etc. For undead, I would limit it to necromancer-spawn (i.e. skeletons and zombies). There's obviously a subset of monsters that the immunity applies to, otherwise why would there be a ST bonus and attack penalty associated with the spell?
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Post by derv on Dec 19, 2017 21:00:33 GMT -6
It is a powerful 1st level magic user and cleric spell. It's essentially a ward or sigil against the conjured. It is not really intended as protection against creatures and men of the material plane, who can cross over the barrier, even though it offers some.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 19, 2017 23:35:11 GMT -6
I've always interpreted this spells as the classic protection circle summoners use - to keep at bay what they called. So the "enchanted" creatures would be, in my interpretation, all spirits, demons, devils, angels, gods, demon lords, old ones.... whatever you can summon in your game. The spell grants the wizard time to make a pact with the summoned being or to use other spells to control it.
My reasoning always was the word "conjurer" which I interpreted as "summoner", a person who can call upon otherworldly beings and force them to appear before him. Maybe that was just rather a narrow translation I made in my teens when my English wasn't so good.
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 20, 2017 10:47:54 GMT -6
It might be useful to look at Gary's later clarifications for what he meant by "enchanted". In Holmes Basic, he modified the Holmes Manuscript to list a few examples of enchanted creatures: "elementals, invisible stalkers, demons, etc." (Gary also changed it so that it is cumulative with other bonuses) zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2013/12/part-10-book-of-first-level-spells.htmlIn the Players Handbook, he gave a comprehensive list: "Preventing bodily contact by creatures of an enchanted or conjured nature such as": Aerial Servants Demons Devils Djinn Efreet Elementals Imps Invisible Stalkers Night Hags Quasits Salamanders Water Weirds Wind Walkers Xorn Summoned Animal or Monsters (presumably anything summoned by Monster Summoning spells) From these, we see that by "enchanted" he meant creatures from another plane of existence. The only wrinkle is that the description of Ghouls in the Monster Manual says that the spell will keep them out as well. Ghasts are explicitly indicated as not kept at bay. See also: knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14020&p=230926
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Post by llenlleawg on Dec 20, 2017 16:22:39 GMT -6
I know the above replies indicate what the spell came in time to mean, but it is helpful to know that, in its first appearance in Chainmail, the spell Protection from Evil was described as follows: A 12" diameter circle which will keep out all evil fantastic creatures/men (Complexity 3). Note that this says all evil fantastic creatures/men, namely: goblins, kobolds, orcs, anti-heroes, (evil) wizards, wraiths, wights (which also includes ghouls), (evil) lycanthropes, ogres, true trolls, balrogs, (evil) giants, dragons, and basilisks/cockatrices. What this (admittedly relatively powerful) spell was meant to do in Chainmail, of course, was to prevent monsters from entering at least part of the battlefield, which the side of Chaos would have to win with ordinary, even if wicked, men. I find this a nice gesture to the trope that evil supernatural beings have an Achilles heel of being in a sense "wrong", and so able to be both bound by and hedged out by magic (not to mention being driven away by faith and prayer), while there is no equivalent vs. Law/Good (even as Clerics can turn undead, while anti-Clerics simply cannot—the undead are unholy and wrong, so are driven away by what is right and true, with no nonsense about turning paladins or angels!).
In the end, I think it would depend a lot on the kind of game you were running in how to adjudicate the spell. If there are lots of monsters that are still "normal" for the world, then perhaps the idea of hedging out only summoned creatures would work. If you are leaning more Arthurian or folkloric, then to hedge out all supernatural beasts, perhaps even those mortals enthralled/ensorcelled by them as well, would be appropriate, so long as there were also mortal opponents to keep things challenging and interesting.
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 20, 2017 19:14:12 GMT -6
In Chainmail, goblins, kobolds, and orcs are normal, not fantastic. Only the entries on the Fantasy Combat Table are fantastic.
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Post by derv on Dec 20, 2017 21:44:37 GMT -6
Depending on your predilections and personal reading of the rules, it might be assumed that "Protection from Evil" is your plain vanilla spell. One you learned at the beginnings of your apprenticeship when you started toying with dark forces. If you want more specific spells of protection, you're going to have to attain a higher level of mastery....or find a scroll. As hinted at in M&T, there are such spells as Protection from Lycanthropes, Undead, Elementals, and Magic. I imagine you could additionally throw in any category you'd like. Supposedly these would all be 6th level spells.
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 20, 2017 21:50:23 GMT -6
Looking at Chainmail is a good idea, too. OD&D doesn't explicitly define "enchanted monsters" so every DM will need to make a ruling and it is good to gather possibilities before making a decision.
"All evil fantastic creatures/men" could be parsed two different ways:
(1) All "evil fantastic creatures" and "evil fantastic men" - this would be limited to those limited on the Fantasy Combat Table as Stormcrow indicates; the evil men being evil heroes, superheroes and wizards. Evil humanoids less than Ogres are not included.
or
(2) All "evil fantastic creatures" and "evil men" - this would refer to every possible evil figure in the game
The latter can't be what was intended for D&D because the spell clearly distinguishes between "enchanted monsters" and "various evil attacks".
* * * *
Another possible places to look for the definition:
The term "enchanted monsters" also appears in Volume 2, in the Sword +1, +2 vs. Magic-Users and Enchanted Monsters
Here we see an equivalence between Magic-Users and Enchanted Monsters. My sense is that this is because the latter term refers to monsters that a Magic-User or Magic Item can conjure or summon. At this point, monsters that can be conjured are limited to the various Elementals, Invisible Stalkers, Djinn, Efreet and possibly the snakes from "Turn Sticks to Snakes", which uses the term "conjured".
* * * *
There's also a definition in Greyhawk, under "Arrows of Slaying":
"Basic types would be: Giant Class, Undead Class, Flying Monsters, Other Monsters, Enchanted Monsters (Invisible Stalkers, Elementals, Golems, Aerial Servants, and so on)."
* * * *
Eldritch Wizardry has a d20 table of "Enchanted-Type Monsters" that includes the four basic elementals, plus djinn, efreet, salamanders and ariel servants, invisible stalkers and the four basic golems.
Lots of options!
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Post by llenlleawg on Dec 21, 2017 7:26:43 GMT -6
In Chainmail, goblins, kobolds, and orcs are normal, not fantastic. Only the entries on the Fantasy Combat Table are fantastic. While you no doubt have the spirit of the thing, in fact the text of Chainmail speaks otherwise. Note, e.g., the following (page numbers from the 3rd edition): 1) p. 29, the list of creatures, including hobbits, sprites, dwarves, and of course orcs, goblins, and kobolds, is headed by the rubric FANTASTIC CHARACTERISTICS2) p. 38, when discussing "Catapult Fire vs. Fantastic Figures", here's the text (emphasis mine in boldface): Only the following kinds of fantastic creatures will be subject to catapult fire (including missile fire by Giants): Hobbits, Sprites, Dwarves, Gnomes, Goblins, Kobolds, Elves, Fairies, Orcs, Heroes, Anti-Heroes, Wights, Ghouls, Lycanthropes, Ogres, Ents, and Rocs.3) p. 39, under "General Line-Up", there is the following text (again, emphasis mine): It is impossible to draw a distinct line between "good" and "evil" fantastic figures. Three categories are listed below as a general guide for the wargamer designing orders of battle involving fantastic creatures:.... The list which follows is the one I list above, which notably includes goblins, kobolds, and orcs, without any distinction of them from wights or wraiths or dragons. 4) p. 43 (Appendix D), everything discussed in pp. 29ff. (and thus goblins, kobolds, and orcs) are here noted in the "Fantasy Reference Table." Now, to be sure, there is a distinct Fantasy Combat Table on p. 44, which you allude to, and no doubt these are the more properly "fantastic" creatures (i.e. more generally understood as supernatural creatures, much as the "goblins" here are like those of Tolkien, and not the wicked little creatures of Faërie, like their equivalents in Three Hearts & Three Lions). However, Chainmail is a game of its time, and care in producing a consistent technical vocabulary just wasn't yet a thing (see the parallel ambiguous use of "hit dice" or "turn" in D&D). TL;DR. Basically you are right in intention, but as it stands, the game does indeed refer to goblins, kobolds, and orcs, and for that matter elves, dwarves, gnomes, and hobbits, as "fantastic".
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Post by countingwizard on Dec 21, 2017 9:25:28 GMT -6
I think DM's should make it clear to their players that it can be cast as a type of enchantment upon a single target or a group of targets, moving with them as the spell is upon them; or it can also be cast as a magical circle to hedge out or contain extra-dimensional/summoned beings. I feel like every time I've tried to use this spell in other games (not yours), the 10' version ends up being a magical circle that follows your character around, which just sounds lame.
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 21, 2017 11:40:26 GMT -6
Okay, foxroe, derv, hamurai, Zenopus, llenlleawg, and Stormcrow: Thanks, folks, for pointing out that it can be cast on anyone. I had never interpreted it that way. I had always only interpreted it as on the MU only. Okay, so it seems to henge, for me, on the definition of "enchanted," which is ambiguous. Looks like most of you have interpreted it the direction Gary would go: "conjured." That does limit it in a good, playable way. I was interpreting it more as "ethereal" (in the ancient, not DMG sense). Thus even Spectres would be warded because Spectres are entirely immaterial in my game. In fact, anything that can only take damage from magic weapons I interpret as ethereal (except vampires, oh, well, there are always exceptions to the rules). If I keep it to "conjured," then it is no longer "game breaking." Also, countingwizard, good point about the difference between lvl 1 protection cast on an individual and the lvl 3 10' radius as something that should be stationary. I think I will go with that. Thanks for the help.
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 21, 2017 12:01:29 GMT -6
You're welcome. That sounds like a good interpretation. As long as you define a category and stick with it for a campaign, it should be fine.
And Men & Magic says that the spell "hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle", so I think you are right that it only affects the caster (in the LBBs). The 10' version also says that it is "around the Magic-User".
A standard use for a MU should be casting on themselves before summoning an elemental. If control is lost, the protected MU cannot be attacked by the out-of-control elemental.
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Post by derv on Dec 21, 2017 16:09:34 GMT -6
I think DM's should make it clear to their players that it can be cast as a type of enchantment upon a single target or a group of targets, moving with them as the spell is upon them; or it can also be cast as a magical circle to hedge out or contain extra-dimensional/summoned beings. I feel like every time I've tried to use this spell in other games (not yours), the 10' version ends up being a magical circle that follows your character around, which just sounds lame. I've always viewed this as a fixed location spell intended to hedge out conjured creatures. I like the idea that it could also be used to hedge in such monsters. Kind of like a magical trap of limited duration. Hmm. Otherwise, the only time I'd agree to a protection-type spell being movable is if it was originating from an enchanted item such as a broach or ring or such.
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