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Post by geoffrey on Nov 7, 2017 17:15:09 GMT -6
GREYHAWK says that liches are "in some way disturbed". You're telling me. A wizard can instead spend 3 weeks and 750 g.p. to make a potion of longevity to knock 10 years off. That's what I'd do. I'd spend 3 weeks making the potion, quaff it down, and then take off the next 9 years and 49 weeks (not a bad "weekend"!). Repeat ad infinitum.  |
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Post by foxroe on Nov 7, 2017 19:50:39 GMT -6
But the power! Moo-hah-hah-hah-<cough>-<wheeze>!
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 7, 2017 21:31:28 GMT -6
"Being in some way disturbed" is of course classic.
From 5e:
"Liches are the remains of great wizards who embrace undeath as a means of preserving themselves. They further their own power at any cost, having no interest in the affairs of the living except where those affairs interfere with their own. Scheming and insane, they hunger for long-forgotten knowledge and the most terrible secrets. Because the shadow of death doesn't hang over them, they can conceive plans that take years, decades, or centuries to come to fruition.
"A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across its bones. Its eyes succumbed to decay long ago, but points of light burn in its empty sockets. It is often garbed in the moldering remains of fine clothing and jewelry worn and dulled by the passage of time."
"Secrets of Undeath. No wizard takes up the path to lichdom on a whim, and the process of becoming a lich is a well-guarded secret. Wizards that seek lichdom must make bargains with fiends, evil gods, or other foul entities. Many turn to Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath, whose power has created countless liches. However, those that control the power of lichdom always demand fealty and service for their knowledge.
"A lich is created by an arcane ritual that traps the wizard's soul within a phylactery. Doing so binds the soul to the mortal world, preventing it from traveling to the Outer Planes after death. A phylactery is traditionally an amulet in the shape of a small box, but it can take the form of any item possessing an interior space into which arcane sigils of naming, binding, immortality, and dark magic are scribed in silver.
"With its phylactery prepared, the future lich drinks a potion of transformation-a vile concoction of poison mixed with the blood of a sentient creature whose soul is sacrificed to the phylactery. The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich as its soul is drawn into the phylactery, where it forever remains.
"Soul Sacrifices. A lich must periodically feed souls to its phylactery to sustain the magic preserving its body and consciousness. It does this using the imprisonment spell. Instead of choosing one of the normal options of the spell, the lich uses the spell to magically trap the target's body and soul inside its phylactery. The phylactery must be on the same plane as the lich for the spell to work. A lich's phylactery can hold only one creature at a time, and a dispel magic cast as a 9th-level spell upon the phylactery releases any creature imprisoned within it. A creature imprisoned in the phylactery for 24 hours is consumed and destroyed utterly, whereupon nothing short of divine intervention can restore it to life.
"A lich that fails or forgets to maintain its body with sacrificed souls begins to physically fall apart, and might eventually become a demilich.
"Death and Restoration. When a lich's body is broken by accident or assault, the will and mind of the lich drains from it, leaving only a lifeless corpse behind. Within days, a new body reforms next to the lich's phylactery, coalescing out of glowing smoke that issues from the device. Because the destruction of its phylactery means the possibility of eternal death, a lich usually keeps its phylactery in a hidden, well- guarded location.
"Destroying a lich's phylactery is no easy task and often requires a special ritual, item, or weapon. Every phylactery is unique, and discovering the key to its destruction can be a quest in and of itself.
"Lonely Existence. From time to time, a lich might be ! stirred from its single-minded pursuit of power to .take an interest in the world around it, most often when some great event reminds it of the life it once led. It otherwise lives in isolation, engaging only with those creatures whose service helps secure its lair.
"Few liches call themselves by their former names, instead adopting monikers such as the Black Hand or the Forgotten King.
"Magic Collectors. Liches collect spells and magic items. In addition to its spell repertoire, a lich has ready access to potions, scrolls, libraries of spellbooks, one or more wands, and perhaps a staff or two. It has no qualms about putting these treasures to use whenever its lair comes under attack.
"Undead Nature. A lich doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep.
"A Lich's Lair. A lich often haunts the abode it favored in life, such as a lonely tower, a haunted ruin, or an academy of black magic. Alternatively, some liches construct secret tombs filled with powerful guardians and traps. Everything about a lich's lair reflects its keen mind and wicked cunning, including the magic and mundane traps that secure it. Undead, constructs, and bound demons lurk in shadowy recesses, emerging to destroy those who dare to disturb the lich's work.
From Greyhawk:
"LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralization, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear."
5e is a joke. Every color picture and 1000-word monster description (with additional tables and lists) is designed to suck the imagination and wonder right out of things.
"Let us imagine it for you," is their motto. Of course it's bad enough that their imagination and its presentation is so banal. The early Gygax would have choked.
Well, now I feel like John Belushi smashing that guitar.
"Sorry."
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Post by hamurai on Nov 7, 2017 23:28:07 GMT -6
Look at the 5E description as one possibility to treat liches. Players may of course know this description, in fact many will probably look it up when they know they'll face a lich soon. As a DM, what I do is I change some aspects to my liking, or I change them all, and watch the jaws drop when the players realize what they thought they knew is not applicable.
I treat these descriptions as folklore, some of it may be true or at least hint at the truth, other things are totally made up. Wonder preserved.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 8, 2017 2:03:15 GMT -6
"Let us imagine it for you," is their motto.  |
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 8, 2017 5:10:50 GMT -6
"Let us imagine it for you," is their motto. Yeah, that line popped out at me as well. This should be a t-shirt slogan.  |
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 8, 2017 9:46:07 GMT -6
I used that "slogan" as the title for a blog piece that I never published. I'm wondering whether I got it from someone or somewhere else. Now I'm thinking I might have made it up.  I suppose it's sort of the flipped version of Matt Finch's "Imagine the hell out of it!" |
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 8, 2017 9:53:06 GMT -6
Look at the 5E description as one possibility to treat liches. Players may of course know this description, in fact many will probably look it up when they know they'll face a lich soon. As a DM, what I do is I change some aspects to my liking, or I change them all, and watch the jaws drop when the players realize what they thought they knew is not applicable. I treat these descriptions as folklore, some of it may be true or at least hint at the truth, other things are totally made up. Wonder preserved. I hear you. And of course it makes sense. Unfortunately, I tend to look at games and systems as a sort of aesthetic whole. However I might decide to make MY lich, having that d**n book on the table with that long and banal description just annoys. That may sound stupid, but there it is. Here's a funny thought experiment: Suppose D&D had premiered in 1974 with that sort of aesthetic - two entire pages of tables, lists and descriptions of some monster named a "lich" (x 100 for all the other monsters). How would it have been received then? Would the new game paradigm of "roleplaying" have taken the world by storm? |
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bravewolf
Level 4 Theurgist
I don't care what Howard says.
Posts: 109 
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Post by bravewolf on Nov 8, 2017 11:30:01 GMT -6
Liches be trippin'!
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EdOWar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 315
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Post by EdOWar on Nov 8, 2017 11:45:47 GMT -6
5e is a joke. Every color picture and 1000-word monster description (with additional tables and lists) is designed to suck the imagination and wonder right out of things. "Let us imagine it for you," is their motto. Of course it's bad enough that their imagination and its presentation is so banal. The early Gygax would have choked. In fairness, though, this is the way most gamers want it. Most gamers don't want to have to make this kind of stuff up, and many of them complain bitterly when they do have to. We're really in the minority on this. So, Wizards is just giving the masses what they want. |
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 8, 2017 12:19:49 GMT -6
5e is a joke. Every color picture and 1000-word monster description (with additional tables and lists) is designed to suck the imagination and wonder right out of things. "Let us imagine it for you," is their motto. Of course it's bad enough that their imagination and its presentation is so banal. The early Gygax would have choked. In fairness, though, this is the way most gamers want it. Most gamers don't want to have to make this kind of stuff up, and many of them complain bitterly when they do have to. We're really in the minority on this. So, Wizards is just giving the masses what they want. Maybe, or yes and no. I think part if it is quasi-inexorable economic forces. Call me a quasi-Marxist on this. You sell the Core Book for $50, or buy one for $50 and you think you need all that those pages and text to justify it. But of course it's not 5e. The same forces were at work as early as AD&D, and then of course you had the splat books. It's also a semi-reasonable human desire. You like something -liches!- so you want to know more about them. But at some point along the line you (or perhaps we) realize that you've lost the original meaning. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Nov 8, 2017 12:44:37 GMT -6
Of course you wouldn't want to become the lich. You are normal. You like life and would to have more quality years to enjoy it - even if a lot of the time isn't spent working.
Some people are consumed by different ambitions. They are held together by, their life-force completely directed by - some overwhelming negative drive. Without this drive, they would no longer exist in any real sense.
This second kind of person is the one who becomes the lich. Undeath is not a horrid fate to be avoided, but rather a blessing. No longer is he tied to humanity, no longer driven by food, companionship, sleep, or bodily functions, the lich is able finally to get its work done. And it never has to stop.
You would not become the lich but that doesn't mean no one would. The lich is born long before the ceremony is performed to create it - lichdom is eternal, only marked by the softness of life at its beginning. Apotheosis is but the start of everything to come.
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 8, 2017 12:46:45 GMT -6
No longer is he tied to humanity, no longer driven by food, companionship, sleep, or bodily functions, the lich is able finally to get its work done. And it never has to stop. It might be useful for NaNo. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Nov 8, 2017 13:10:42 GMT -6
No longer is he tied to humanity, no longer driven by food, companionship, sleep, or bodily functions, the lich is able finally to get its work done. And it never has to stop. It might be useful for NaNo. You're all welcome to it! My NaNo is historical fiction - no elves or liches |
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 8, 2017 13:21:41 GMT -6
It might be useful for NaNo. You're all welcome to it! My NaNo is historical fiction - no elves or liches I meant you becoming a lich for the duration. You know, temporarily. |
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Post by coffee on Nov 10, 2017 8:31:28 GMT -6
One of the problems I have with them imagining it for us is that there are players out there who will insist that that IS the ONLY way you can do it. I have little time for those guys.
And I have to disagree that becoming a lich would help with NaNo. Every time I've done it, the spur of only having those few precious writing hours was an essential part of the process. If I had had all the hours of the day available, I wouldn't have done anything. Sad but true.
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Post by oakesspalding on Nov 10, 2017 9:41:52 GMT -6
One of the problems I have with them imagining it for us is that there are players out there who will insist that that IS the ONLY way you can do it. I have little time for those guys. And I have to disagree that becoming a lich would help with NaNo. Every time I've done it, the spur of only having those few precious writing hours was an essential part of the process. If I had had all the hours of the day available, I wouldn't have done anything. Sad but true. I think that's a great point. (My lich comment was a joke.) Gene Wolfe wrote about this phenomenon in The Castle of the Otter. He pointed out how many of the most prolific fiction writers of all time had day jobs. Famously, Anthony Trollope was a postal surveyor. According to Wikipedia: Trollope began writing on the numerous long train trips around Ireland he had to take to carry out his postal duties. Setting very firm goals about how much he would write each day, he eventually became one of the most prolific writers of all time. He wrote his earliest novels while working as a Post Office inspector, occasionally dipping into the "lost-letter" box for ideas. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Nov 10, 2017 13:46:53 GMT -6
Trollope also wrote one of the first science fiction novels called The Fixed Period, which is worth reading.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by Todd on Nov 21, 2017 7:14:56 GMT -6
The 5E style definitely has mixed results but I don’t think there’s any question that the majority of 5E gamers appreciate it. Books like Volo’s Guide are super popular. I do agree that people lose sight of the fact that these are all guides and not absolutes.
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 23, 2017 12:09:26 GMT -6
Look at the 5E description as one possibility to treat liches. Players may of course know this description, in fact many will probably look it up when they know they'll face a lich soon. As a DM, what I do is I change some aspects to my liking, or I change them all, and watch the jaws drop when the players realize what they thought they knew is not applicable. I treat these descriptions as folklore, some of it may be true or at least hint at the truth, other things are totally made up. Wonder preserved. I usually do it this way at the table as well. Whatever edition we're using, its Monster Manual is a real text that circulates around the libraries of the world, and scholars & smarter adventurers school up on it. That gets rid of the problem where players always know too much about the monsters. But, because it's a game world prop, it's also subject to be wrong, outdated, misleading, missing examples, etc. That takes care of me being able to change things up or to ignore entries without upsetting players about it. |
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Post by derv on Nov 23, 2017 20:44:25 GMT -6
In fairness, though, this is the way most gamers want it. Most gamers don't want to have to make this kind of stuff up, and many of them complain bitterly when they do have to. We're really in the minority on this. So, Wizards is just giving the masses what they want. Maybe, or yes and no. I think part if it is quasi-inexorable economic forces. Call me a quasi-Marxist on this. You sell the Core Book for $50, or buy one for $50 and you think you need all that those pages and text to justify it. But of course it's not 5e. The same forces were at work as early as AD&D, and then of course you had the splat books. It's also a semi-reasonable human desire. You like something -liches!- so you want to know more about them. But at some point along the line you (or perhaps we) realize that you've lost the original meaning. I dunno, I think the game has always encouraged this eventuality. I mean, it is a game about discovering new and crazy s**t. Some of it is well documented mythology. A person can read extensively on all things Greek, for instance. So it starts. Where do I learn more about Black Puddings, though, or some of the other new and wild made up things? In 1979, the Dragon was already running a regular series known as "The Dragon's Bestiary". This developed into a full column from the previous irregular blips known as "Featured Creature". Featured Creature had it's start in the Strategic Review. Later, the concept would evolve into another well known column through the 80's, "The Ecology of the..." These became more and more extensive articles. Of course the MM was already available in 1978. Let's not point the finger entirely at TSR. White Dwarf had their running "Fiend Factory" column in 1978. This stemmed from earlier articles by Don Turnbull known as "Monsters Mild and Malign" found in issues 4 & 5. Similarly, JG offered The Dungeoneer's "Monster Matrix" and Lee Gold's A&E had it's own offerings. Prior to TSR's MM, Chaosium published the first comprehensive manual in 1977, "All The Worlds' Monsters", vol 1-3. Honestly, it seems that the game encourages encyclopedic information gathering. It's natural. The information was wanted, possibly yearned for, and even demanded. The market was simply responding to those demands for legend and lore- almost immediately. That doesn't mean, like Greek mythology, it shouldn't be considered apocryphal in your campaign world. |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Nov 24, 2017 11:03:11 GMT -6
Honestly, it seems that the game encourages encyclopedic information gathering. It's natural. The information was wanted, possibly yearned for, and even demanded. The market was simply responding to those demands for legend and lore- almost immediately. BIG SNIP - I just wanted to side comment on this part. For me, note taking, which includes mapping, is a huge part of Dungeons & Dragons. It's a player tactic, but it is so essential to the game it's hard not to expect players to engage in it. Effectively, everything in a new campaign is new. And it's up to the players to pay attention to what they are encountering, whatever its nature, so they can have some understanding in case they ever encounter it again. It's exactly like building an encyclopedia in that it is a knowledge base coming from everyday learning. Each player engages in it separately but like all things they can work together at it too. The creation of a wiki by the entire community of players for a computer automated RPG is a similar experience. As a cooperative game D&D means none of us are playing alone, but there isn't supposed to be walkthrough guide online either. -------- The problem with "Official D&D" however is it codifies what is meant to be an adventure game, something inherently involving the act of players discovering unknown elements of the game, and then publishes it for all to see. This published canon then becomes "the real game", which I strongly believe is at odds with its actual design. Anyone can than read those official game designs, like players peeking behind the screen or reading the module beforehand. (Sorry if I'm blowing off steam here) Ultimately what canon thinking means is a community of buyers wanting the official author's or company's take on the game. This can certainly help for players knowing beforehand the scope of what kind of setting they are getting, but that can be handled during Session 1 decisions too. What it takes away is the obvious need for players to improve their ability to play the game. Another thing of treating canon as the game means players already primed for hunting down new and inspiring mechanical configurations in-game instead become customers who spoiler-read the game modules essential for those who actually play. And because there are many more potential players to sell to the products shift from being scenarios for referees to stories attempting to entertain readers. A confused state of affairs we are now in so deep that D&D now means plot following and gaming is conflated with storytelling). ...Anyway, apologies. I do believe contributions of ever new and fresh game designs is an essential necessity for maintaining a healthy D&D community, but official-ness, codification, and canon actually result in ballooning and overburdening the game. |
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Post by derv on Nov 24, 2017 16:38:22 GMT -6
I agree with most of what howandwhy99 has to say here. Yet, I would also add that we sometimes fail to understand the original motive in people asking for canon, i.e. more information i.e. what is TSR's official take. We live in the information age. Type a word and enter- instant information. It was not always so. The subject of this thread is the Lich, a somewhat obscure subject as regards mythology. Perhaps some automatically attach it to Tolkien. But, if you wanted more understanding into the folklore during the 70's, you would have had to take a trip to the library, talked to someone educated on the subject, and done a bit of research. It would have taken some time and effort. Fast forward to today, google "Lich folklore" and you are inundated with info. The biggest hurdle is wading through what does not pertain. Hopefully you will have uncovered some Slavic stories about Koschei the Deathless, possibly an excerpt from Andrew Lang's Fairy Books. How about that Black Pudding? Looking into the mythology would be fruitless. It's inspired by film. Is it an alien from another planet? What's it doing in the dungeon? It's a mystery. The question still remained, "what is TSR's (or WotC's) take on it?" I'm not sure how many would find it gratifying not knowing the story behind these creatures. |
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Post by countingwizard on Dec 19, 2017 15:00:22 GMT -6
5e is a joke. Every color picture and 1000-word monster description (with additional tables and lists) is designed to suck the imagination and wonder right out of things. "Let us imagine it for you," is their motto. Of course it's bad enough that their imagination and its presentation is so banal. The early Gygax would have choked. Well, now I feel like John Belushi smashing that guitar. "Sorry." I agree, and that is what I love about OD&D. That said, my DM notes are usually full pages of crap I've made up about whatever monster or race of monsters I've cared to detail. |
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Post by oakesspalding on Dec 19, 2017 15:03:01 GMT -6
I agree, and that is what I love about OD&D. That said, my DM notes are usually full pages of crap I've made up about whatever monster or race of monsters I've cared to detail. Right. But it's YOUR crap. |
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I suppose it's sort of the flipped version of Matt Finch's "Imagine the hell out of it!"
