Do Your Puzzles and Traps Have Solutions?

[BeZurKur]

So I'm stocking an area of a dungeon with a surreal Alice In Wonderland tone. It has animated dolls and is loaded with traps. I go on the internet for some ideas and come across one that fits perfectly: a lock that literally chews and eats keys.

Okay, that's cool. I decide to go a little crazier and more deadly. The lock also talks and their are multiple keys in the room. With every key the players feed the lock, the ceiling drops a few feet. At the last key, the ceiling drops to the floor. Of course, the lock will deny that and claim that at the last key, it'll open the door. I figure this will be an interesting roleplaying encounter.

I then try to figure out the solution and I'm stumped. Now I'm wondering if I should even try. Maybe it's best to let the players figure one out on their own, but is it fair to throw a puzzle -- particularly a deadly one -- without an answer? So what do you typically do?

[Deleted]

I think that there should be some sort of way out that smart or experienced players can figure out. A room that is 100% guaranteed death to the players regardless of their actions seems to be at odds with the spirit of the game. What that solution should be I don't know, but the encounter does sound interesting.

[badger2305]

Jul 25, 2008 0:02:43 GMT -6 BeZurKur said:

So I'm stocking an area of a dungeon with a surreal Alice In Wonderland tone. It has animated dolls and is loaded with traps.

There's an early White Dwarf article which details a section of (IIRC) Don Turnbull's dungeon set up with an Alice in Wonderland theme. If I can get your email. I'll scan it and send it to you.

I go on the internet for some ideas and come across one that fits perfectly: a lock that literally chews and eats keys.

Okay, that's cool. I decide to go a little crazier and more deadly. The lock also talks and their are multiple keys in the room. With every key the players feed the lock, the ceiling drops a few feet. At the last key, the ceiling drops to the floor. Of course, the lock will deny that and claim that at the last key, it'll open the door. I figure this will be an interesting roleplaying encounter.

I then try to figure out the solution and I'm stumped. Now I'm wondering if I should even try. Maybe it's best to let the players figure one out on their own, but is it fair to throw a puzzle -- particularly a deadly one -- without an answer? So what do you typically do?

Have vertical score marks on the walls, faint but visible. Another clue would be a leather helmet, made for a goblin, mashed flat. I don't have a problem with obvious clues when the outcome is certain death. Alternatively, you could have a section of the ceiling be vaulted, such that people in one part of the roof are not mashed. When the trap resets, they could then escape.

[grodog]

Perhaps the players need to placate the lock with something fun to eat that isn't a key, like an orange, or an opal, or somesuch, and then it'll allow them to escape, or provide clues that'll help them figure out some reasonable answer. Of course if they feed it things it doesn't like (based on reaction roll?), perhaps the ceiling drops more quickly/further that round....

[ffilz]

This sounds like a cool trap. Perhaps it truly doesn't have a solution. Perhaps the players will come up with something that really impresses you. This isn't an instant death, no save, no warning trap (and there's nothing wrong with a few of those even, so long as there are ways for PCs to be more cautious).

The only thing that's bad is a trap series with no solution that is entirely designed to grind any party that tries the series to a pulp. I would call a GM who did that a "Shigawire Morgan." Morgan was a DM who came to the MIT club shortly after I did, at first, he wanted to co-DM with me (and a few other guys). Totally failing his Charisma rolls, he managed to get a few players to try his dungeon. I, not being a sucker, just watched. In the entrance to the dungeon was a pit, no warning, no chance to avoid. In the pit was a screen of monofilament wire (shigawire - from Dune if I recall the source correctly). Half the party was turned to puree in that trap. Then the rest got past the pit somehow, and some died in the next trap. I forget if the game ended in a TPK, or just the last survivors quitting out of disgust. That was the end of Shigawire Morgan. Oh, he hung around for another couple weeks, but no one would play with him, and he didn't try and play in anyone else's game.

Frank

[BeZurKur]

Jul 25, 2008 7:09:46 GMT -6 @ptingler said:

A room that is 100% guaranteed death to the players regardless of their actions seems to be at odds with the spirit of the game.

It isn't that the room is 100% guaranteed death; it is that even I don't have an answer -- as of yet. Letting the player devise their own answer is, I believe, within the spirit. However, because I don't have one, my concern is that it is a sure killer.

Jul 25, 2008 8:17:59 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

I don't have a problem with obvious clues when the outcome is certain death.

Good tip. I'm totally stealing the crushed goblin helmet.

Jul 25, 2008 9:11:51 GMT -6 grodog said:

Perhaps the players need to placate the lock with something fun to eat that isn't a key, like an orange, or an opal, or somesuch, and then it'll allow them to escape, or provide clues that'll help them figure out some reasonable answer.

This is what I'm talking about: something along this line sounds right to me. It works with the tone of the room. However, now I'm inclined for this to be the "right" answer. As good as it sounds, I don't know if writing it in is right thing to do. In other words, is it "wrong" to throw in puzzles and let the answers develop at play?

I don't have a problem throwing a wight with level drain at first level players. I give them a hint of how dangerous it is and let them figure out how to deal with it. A straight combat answer will probably turn out a TPK, but some creative thinking usually gets them out. That's part of the adventure. For some reason, when it comes to puzzles, I feel hesitant. I'm wondering if anyone else throws puzzles and traps without pre-determined answers.

[BeZurKur]

Jul 25, 2008 10:10:00 GMT -6 ffilz said:

This sounds like a cool trap. Perhaps it truly doesn't have a solution. Perhaps the players will come up with something that really impresses you. This isn't an instant death, no save, no warning trap (and there's nothing wrong with a few of those even, so long as there are ways for PCs to be more cautious).

(Argh, beat me to the post! I'm a slow typist.
This is like my fifth edit: that's why I write so slowly. )

Thanks, Frank. That's exactly what I meant, but wasn't sure if doing so was "Shigawire Morgan".

Perhaps this thread belongs more in the Philosophy section, but I'm curious in what people think about writing puzzles without the solution worked into them. I'm now feeling better about throwing it in blind, but am still interested in what others think.

[ffilz]

I don't know that I've done it, but having a difficult problem where the GM doesn't know the exact solution is fine - as long as some kind of logic drives acceptance of the solution. What you want to be careful of is turning such a problem into some kind of popularity contest. There's a tricky line to follow, navigating between various creative contributions from your players. Obviously we want to reward the contributions that make the game the most fun, while discouraging un-fun contributions. But we need to take care that we are open to everyone's contributions, and that we evaluate fun as a group and not just the DM (or the DM and his best friend(s)).

One other consideration, make sure this trap doesn't completely block progress in the game. That way, if the players can't come up with a solution, or don't want to spend the time, they have another path to follow and be successful.

Given those considerations, this is a totally awesome trap whether it can be solved or not.

Frank

[blackbarn]

It's not wrong to think about and write down possible solutions, as long as you don't get them stuck in your head as the only solutions. Always be open to player ideas, and don't give them unintentional hints towards your existing ideas. Players do tend to find unusual and unexpected solutions to problems, so leaving a tricky situation without thinking of the answers is perfectly ok, too.

[BeZurKur]

I think I got. I've been spending a lot of time trying to devise clever traps for the players to defeat, but I think devising them takes longer than solving them. However, these two pieces of advice will help me avoid any pitfalls:

having a difficult problem where the GM doesn't know the exact solution is fine - as long as some kind of logic drives acceptance of the solution. What you want to be careful of is turning such a problem into some kind of popularity contest.

and

It's not wrong to think about and write down possible solutions, as long as you don't get them stuck in your head as the only solutions.

Going by that, I don't have to come up with a solution. I just let the players do that. Yeah, I know it sounds lazy, but for heavy trap/puzzle laden section, it really makes it easier to design. Thanks everyone.

[scogle]

I'll usually have at least one solution planned-out - either on paper on in my head - but if the players find some creative way around it, I go with the flow (assuming the method makes logical sense at any rate).