Reconsidering Main Classes: Clerics & Thieves

[Lord Cias]

Let me start by saying that I have nothing against either the cleric or thief class, and have no problem with including them in my games. However, after much consideration I have come to the conclusion that both of these classes are of a much more narrow scope than the fighting man and magic-user classes. They are more like sub-class than main classes (this itself could be a separate subject of discussion). Thus I wish to create two new classes of broader scope to take the place of the cleric and thief as main classes (and make the cleric and thief sub-classes like they should be).

This is where I need some help. I've come up with some partial classes, but
have encountered a creative block that is preventing me from fleshing these out completely, so I'm asking for ideas.

Of the two classes, the thief replacement is the one that is the most complete as its abilities are basically just a variation of the standard thief. All I'm lacking is an appropriate name. Please submit any ideas. Bonus points if it can be hyphenated like fighting-man, magic-user, or wise-man (see below).

CLASS NAME? (Covert-man is my working title but I'm not happy with it.)
Basic Concept: An adventurer that relies on stealth, guile, and subterfuge
Game-system Focus: Exploration*
Prime Requisite: Dexterity
Alignment: Any
Primary Skills: very similar to a standard thief, but with a few changes
Weapons Allowed: Club, dagger, short sword, light crossbow
Armor Allowed: None (except as part of a disguise)
Level Titles: 1 Sneak, 2 Snoop, 3 Cloak, 4 Mole, 5 Prowler, 6 Spy, 7 Mask, 8 Shadow, 9 Subverter, 10 Infiltrator
Sub-Classes: Burglar (thief), Assassin

The cleric replacement is more difficult in that I've only got a vague idea for the concept but can't decide on exactly what powers/abilities it should have. I want it to have some type of mystical/supernatural power without making just another type of spell caster. I also want their powers to be tied to alignment in some fashion. The idea I've come up with so far is the ability to work "wonders," which have both mundane and magical facets. I do have a name though, the Wise-man. The following are examples of some of the types of categories of wonders:
* Esoterics - knowledge of hidden lore and mysteries, sub-divided by subject
* Divination - the ability to interpret signs, omens, and prophecies
* Alchemy - creation of both magical and mundane compounds and substances
* Mystics - the use of magical powers and the invocation of spirits
* Miracles - the ability to exert serendipitous supernatural influence over specific or unique situations

WISE-MAN
Basic Concept: sage-like adventurer that has some supernatural powers associated with Law, Chaos, or Neutrality
Game-system Focus: Alignment*
Prime Requisite: Wisdom
Alignment: Any
Primary Skills: Wonders, +2 defensive bonus vs. opposite alignment
Weapons Allowed: Staff and any other one type (no magic swords though)
Armor Allowed: Shield only
Level Titles: 1 Visionary, 2 Interpreter, 3 Diviner, 4 Harbinger, 5 Channeller, 6 Sage, 7 Guru, 8 Oracle
Sub-Classes: Cleric, Druid, (probably Monk also)

All ideas and suggestions are welcome!

* It seems to me that each of the four main classes focus on a particular aspect of the game system: the combat system for fighting men, the magic system for magic-users, alignment for clerics (anti-clerics), and thieves specialize in the various exploration tasks. I think this is why it's so hard to come up with a unique fifth main class that isn't just a variation of one of the existing, as there isn't really a fifth major sub-system outside these four.

[Scott Anderson]

Check out the character classes here:

drive.google.com/open?id=0B_0ONkhGdLg8V19yWWpKaDVNM1U

Take what you need.

[howandwhy99]

Off the top of my head, there are at least 3 more major classes which might be utilized, but they don't lend themselves to adventuring - a particular style of game play where you go out and gain experience in part from discovering the world / game board. Players do these things as well in the game, but it is not what they gain XP for. As it stands most of the NPC classes fill these, at least in AD&D.

1. The Manufacturer - these are people who build the world. From the 90% (?) of humans supporting others by farming to the high end castle and city engineer-architects. I find this game is generalized for the players where they tell the NPC what sword they want and other people deal with the details.

2. The Service-Person - these are service jobs which aren't simply laborers. There is some skill involved, even a profession possibly. But they it's all about job completion for a customer. There may be more games to be developed here, but as social roles go there is little to benefit from exploring the secret parts of a city, the unclaimed wilderness, or suicidal dungeoneering. If the players are being paid to go do something, they are probably a specialty group for this category.

3. The Merchant - This is the class closest to what players do in town IMO. Haggle and price shop. I mean, I like the idea that D&D has a fluctuating economy and players can put themselves in the position to crash a small enough one. But making the whole class about buying and selling, exporting and importing doesn't lend itself to adventuring so much except for treasure. And by high levels you are the treasure hoarder paying others to protect their travels. Too much of an inversion for my tastes.

NPC versions of the Fighting-Man of course run all through the NPC classes, but they aren't elite warriors, but "regulars". Clerics likely have some administrative aides. And wizards have Alchemists, but I think the latter really is more of a manufacturer in early D&D. A necessity for some of the Magic-User's scope of play, but not a class for adventuring so much.

I mean, there is still the potential for game mastery / role mastery here. But it's more Agricola or Puerto Rico than D&D.

[murquhart72]

My view has always been: Want to classify your dude? Well, if you use magic, you're a Magic-User; If not, you're just a Fighting-Man.
This always led me to question just what the hell a "Cleric" was. Vampire slaying mega-knight? IDK. And thief? Well, aren't they all just stealing stuff while trying to avoid confrontation?

[hamurai]

Sept 5, 2017 19:39:30 GMT -6 Lord Cias said:

Of the two classes, the thief replacement is the one that is the most complete as its abilities are basically just a variation of the standard thief. All I'm lacking is an appropriate name. Please submit any ideas. Bonus points if it can be hyphenated like fighting-man, magic-user, or wise-man (see below).

Fortune-Seeker?
Broad enough term and fits the exploration role, I think.

[Scott Anderson]

With stricter limits on spell selection plus giving everyone a chance to turn the undead, you could fold the cleric's game functions into the MU's. I think that would make religion/alignment more important, not less, but YMMV.

Still, I like the Cleric. It's a gish and there is a place for a gish. Nobody talks about brooming Elfs.

Thief as a concept is great but you don't need it as a class.

[waysoftheearth]

Sept 5, 2017 19:39:30 GMT -6 Lord Cias said:

Of the two classes, the thief replacement is the one that is the most complete as its abilities are basically just a variation of the standard thief. All I'm lacking is an appropriate name. Please submit any ideas. Bonus points if it can be hyphenated like fighting-man, magic-user, or wise-man (see below).

"Yes, yes, but that was long ago," said Gloin. "I was talking about you. And I assure you there is a mark on this door--the usual one in the trade, or used to be. Burglar wants a good job, plenty of Excitement and reasonable Reward, that's how it is usually read. You can say Expert Treasure-hunter instead of Burglar if you like. Some of them do. It's all the same to us.

(The Hobbit)

[Lord Cias]

Sept 6, 2017 18:55:23 GMT -6 murquhart72 said:

This always led me to question just what the hell a "Cleric" was. Vampire slaying mega-knight?

I think this is a question that must be addressed before one fiddles with the class. Men & Magic describes it as a hybrid class, a combination fighter/magic-user, as Scott points out. While on one level this is true, it's clear that because of their weapon restrictions, unique spell selection, the added ability to turn undead, and their ties to religion they don't come across simply as either a fighting-man that can use magic or a magic-user that can fight (like the elf does). They are support units, for sure. As I said in my original post, they also are more strongly tied to the alignment system than the other classes (their powers differ based on alignment and there are strict penalties for a change in alignment).

I'm still undecided on exactly what I wan't the "wise-man" to be. The concept is vague and nebulous in my mind, so I'm open to suggestions. Some addtional ideas I had in addition to what I posted above:
1) While magic-users are scholars of the supernatural, perhaps wise-men are scholars of more natural topics, like cultures, history, and some physical sciences.
2) Alignment languages are one of those things that, to me, have always seemed better in theory then they are in practice. Perhaps alignment languages could be unique to wise-men.
3) Regarding abilities that will be of practical use in adventures, perhaps their wisdom and forethought gives them a chance to always have the right tool for the job, no matter how unusual. Before setting out on an adventure a wise-man can prepare a special equipment pack of fixed size and weight but it's contents are undefined. If a situation arises during an adventure where the PCs need a particular tool (non-magical and of limited size, of course) but no one has it, there is a % chance (increasing with level) that the wise-man just happens to have packed that very item.
4) Alignment-based magic. Three (small) spell lists, one for each alignment.
5) Miracles - a combination of #3 and #4 above.

[peterlind]

Nice ideas. I have a couple of thoughts on a Wise Man/Wise Woman class: First, you might want to check out Dangerous Journeys: Mythus, since Gary Gygax had such a class in that game.

Second, I would suggest approaching the class as a spell-user that approaches magic in a fundamentally different way from that of MUs. Perhaps one way to look at MUs, since their prime requisite is Intelligence, is that they take a scientific approach to magic. Thus, the focus of their magic is mainly focused on what today would be called physics or metaphysics. Also, their spells are mainly derived from the scientific method - research, laboratories, and so forth. Also, the source of a MU's magic can be seen as primarily external - the channeling of power from the other planes, etc.

The Wise Man / Wise Woman can be seen as more like a shaman. They are preserving and practicing some kind of ancient tradition, usually based on pacts with otherworldly entities (gods, demons, elemental spirits, animal spirits, and so forth. In addition, they could be something like a mystic as well, with the source of their magical power being mainly internally focused. For a good source of a mystic-type character, I would check out the Compleat Spellcaster by Stephen Michael Sechi (Bard Games). With this kind of definition, witches can fit within this category as well as clerics.